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South Korean President Park Geun-hye's corruption scandal

130 points by _khau 10y ago

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
barrkel 10y ago
I was completely unaware of this developing story in Korea. Properly contextualized, it's very interesting.
- ionised 10y ago
  Yeah as the article mentions, the English press has only lightly touched on the story. There is a lot more to it.
sickbeard 10y ago
I wouldn't be shocked if Choi Soon-sil has some dark secret of hers.
smoyer 10y ago
Well ... I guess I feel a little bit better knowing that today in The US we'll elect a rationally corrupt president instead of an irrationally corrupt president.
- throwanem 10y ago
  I don't. "Rational" in this context just means more effective at screwing the country in favor of self-interest.
- wsc981 10y ago
  As an European, I sure hope the "rationally" corrupt president won't be elected. I fear that under her leadership chances for a war with Russia would increase and WW3 is not something I look forward to. If a war would happen because of US's interests in Crimea, we would take the hits.
  - saiya-jin 10y ago
    well, under Trump, Putin can do almost whatever he wants, without strong opposition. I mean, we all heard his statements/plans. pretty bad choice for europe too, arguably even worse
    - wsc981 10y ago
      Putin hasn't been trying to increase his sphere of influence, unlike the US and the EU. Putin seems more interested in keeping up the status quo, which to me is a more preferable situation. Think about it - how would the US like it if Russia would station it's armies in Mexico or perhaps do military practice in this country? Note that the US has army bases all across the world and instability in many countries has been caused by US policy. Policy which seems to be guided mainly by business interests: - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/15/russia-says-western-investment-in-ukraines-farms-is-a-plot-to-take-over-the-world/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/15... - http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303851804579560542284706288 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023038518045795605...
      - bbctol 10y ago
        Wait, you don't consider entering Crimea to be increasing his sphere of influence? Even if you consider that justified, surely it's still expansionist?
        jessaustin 10y ago
        Crimea was already solidly within that sphere, covered as it is by Russian military installations. It would be nice if the rest of Ukraine could enjoy the benefits of self-determination, but it isn't clear that increased USA involvement is the best way to achieve that.
      - Agathos 10y ago
        > Putin hasn't been trying to increase his sphere of influence What a peculiar thing to say.
- jondubois 10y ago
  Yes, the cultural differences are massive. In South Korea, if a politician gets involved in shady side-dealings, people march out in the streets by the thousands to demand their immediate resignation. In the US, the same behaviour will actually help you get elected (the corporations who own you will make sure of it). What Hillary Clinton did is the textbook representation of everything that has gone wrong in our society over the past 10 years. I think Trump is horrible as well but if I was American I'd vote for him anyway out of protest.
sho_hn 10y ago
I live in Korea. No particular authority, but if anyone has additional questions I can take a stab at answering.
- rjbwork 10y ago
  Is this "8 Goddesses" cult thing legit, or is yet another paranoid conspiracy theory meme? It's really hard to tell as someone who doesn't speak Korean. there's just little bits of info leaking out, mostly just talking about Choi Soon-Sil.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - sho_hn 10y ago
    Dunno. The facts on the ground are that Choi's father became an ordained priest in '75 (reportedly he paid handsomely for his ordainment and didn't actually complete theological studies) and set up his own Christian-Shamanistic church. Commentors describe him as having been mostly interested in political gain and using his cult as a means to do so. It's unclear in what capacity his daughter has actually continued to do so. One of Korean's Shaman associations has publically distanced itself from both of them this week, effectively calling them self-appointed charlatans. Basically, cults do exist in Korea, and cults and political leadership have been involved with each other. Whether there's a grand conspiracy I can't say. I'm no fan of religion myself, but in fairness it's important to note that "Shaman" & co are sort of a trigger word for a Western audience, invoking images of the barbarians at the gates - that's our Christian cultural-historic bias at work (I'm originally from Germany). This conflict actually plays out in Korea as well, owing to a large percentage of Christians among the population (how that came to be is in itself a fascinating topic). But really it's just a tree of folk religions. The problem here is how easily it's invoked by cult schemes, I guess.
- patrickg_zill 10y ago
  What about 8 Goddess, Megalians , and the Megalian woman who had her boyfriend sexually assault girls she didn't like? Has that been proven to be true or is that part still in the rumor category?
yarou 10y ago
It's quite sad how one's mind can be poisoned, corrupted, and manipulated by the loss of a dearly loved one.
- hga 10y ago
  Yeah, I've seen too much of this with my mother's abuse of my father, and she lost both her parents to assassination, vs. his losing his father to an accident. In all the cases I know of, at least if early enough, this sort of loss really messes up a surviving child.
whack 10y ago
Sounds to me like the president has a multitude of skeletons in her closet, through which she's being blackmailed. Or perhaps she's just a puppet, under someone else's control all along. Maybe I'm just overly cynical, but I'm not too surprised to hear stories like this. Our political process is just so dysfunctional, that I don't think it's possible for a normal, worthy leader to actually win the election. The only way to get to the top is to sell out your integrity in one way or another. We wonder why our leaders are so morally bankrupt, when really, our process is explicitly designed to weed out anyone who isn't.
- ionised 10y ago
  I'm reminded of a quote (not sure who by, and I'm paraphrasing) along the lines of; "Those who desire power make the worst leaders, those who don't make the best." Basically anyone who wants to be leader, probably shouldn't be. Not sure how you would resolve a dilemma like that though. I've always felt a modern version of Sortition would be ideal; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
  - DomreiRoam 10y ago
    You may find this article [1] from the guardian interesting. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jul/18/against-elections-the-case-for-democracy-david-van-reybrouck-review https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jul/18/against-electi...
  - bboreham 10y ago
    “The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them. To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.” ― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
    - 10y ago
bane 10y ago
Lots of people have questions about the nature of the cult that the president seems to be connected with. In South Korea, just like any country, there's an entire spectrum of minor splinter "cults" along the entire spectrum of available religions. Korea has a surprisingly rich and complex religious landscape ranging from ancient folk practices (often translated as "Shamanism" in Korea) to various Buddhist sects to various flavors Christianity (the current religious majority), Confucian practices and so on. All have deep historic, political and social roots and between the cracks of the formal practices, tons of cults, syncretism, and other practices flourish. For example, it wouldn't be at all unusual for somebody to go to a very formal church on Sunday, attend a Buddhist funeral on Thursday, and go out with friends on Saturday to visit a "fortune teller" before going on a blind date who would supply fortunes based on ancient folk practices. The average person might not even be aware that they are crossing various religious boundaries. For reasons I haven't quite understood, there's also a cultural acceptance that many people wish to become religious leaders of some sort. It's often manifest in members of the majority Christian churches becoming ministers at very high rates and forming their own minor churches. Korea is littered with churches of all sizes. In general this happens in the formal church structure but it's not uncommon for splinter groups to spin out rapidly as well with various modified beliefs or teachings or even forming syncretic cults of some flavor. To give you an idea of how intense religion can be in Korea, it's the only known country to have self converted to Christianity and established an internal proselytizing mechanism before missionaries showed up in the country. Cults are not really accepted in South Korea, most people still look at them as out of the norm, and cult members to be out of the norm, hence the public reaction to the President's connection to a cult. For anybody interested in the shamanistic folk traditions in Korea, I can highly recommend the movie "The Wailing" (2016) as an both a great movie, and contains several brilliantly filmed scenes of some intense shamanistic practices that I've heard described as "deeply authentic" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_South_Korea http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5215952/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5215952/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wailing_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wailing_(film)
bbctol 10y ago
Ask A Korean is a really good blog if you remain interested in the country. I follow Korean issues less now than I once did, but the author has a nice style and is willing to deal with Korean/American issues complexly.
- at-fates-hands 10y ago
  How is the Korean media in comparison to say the US or UK? Are they pretty objective, or more in the vein of the US, UK media where its very tabloidish?
  - bbctol 10y ago
    The newspapers/TV are plain, if somewhat conservative. However, South Korea has an internet culture that makes America look a decade behind, for better or worse; people get massive amounts of information from social media and citizen journalists, which is one of the reasons a story this weird is stirring up so many conspiracy theories and speculation.
brilliantcode 10y ago
As a Korean, it infuriates me to see a Korean president who genuinely seems to be incapable of making rational decisions with the country's interest at heart. Choi Soon Sil (lovingly called Choi SIRI by the people we'll call her CSS) comes from some Korean shaman society. CSS's father was a leader of some shaman cult and claimed that he could speak to Park Geun Hye's mother who was assassinated by a North Korean agent. The Choi family grew very close to Park Geun Hye, and it was presented that they used their closeness to the First Lady (Park Geun Hye took the role after her mother's death) for profiteering and corruption. After the assassination of Park Chung Hee (Park Geun Hye), President Chun Doo Hwan, a loyal disciple of the deceased president, exiled CSS's father. It is alleged that President Chun Doo Hwan's corruption revelation was orchestrated by CSS to avenge her father. In an economy dominated by a handful of family dynasties, it seems that in order to continue this asymmetrical system that puts so much burden on the Korean people, president's office and the people surrounding it are almost certainly likely to peddle influence which Chaebol (Korean word for conglomerates) gladly pay large amount of sums for (since the return on investment by paying off a Korean politician is massive - you could win military contracts, license for monopoly etc.). This system is now beginning to show cracks. People have completely lost trust in the system. There's even rumours of a military coup, how ironic, that the current president whose father overthrew the first Korean president Rhee with a coup, is now expecting one herself.
devonkim 10y ago
I've heard mention that this cult is somehow related to the Moonies cult that Americans are more familiar with, is there any merit to these claims? I can't find much connection between this and the Moonies in terms of current activities and maybe I'm not looking for the right terms in Korean but it seems like a very tenuous or circumstantial relation, if any. I don't understand why it would even matter if they're connected either. Watching Korean politics growing up I thought what was happening was basically the equivalent of Western tabloid media, but I'm not sure where the absurd starts anymore.

130 points by _khau 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

barrkel 10y ago

I was completely unaware of this developing story in Korea. Properly contextualized, it's very interesting.

ionised 10y ago
Yeah as the article mentions, the English press has only lightly touched on the story. There is a lot more to it.

sickbeard 10y ago

I wouldn't be shocked if Choi Soon-sil has some dark secret of hers.

smoyer 10y ago

Well ... I guess I feel a little bit better knowing that today in The US we'll elect a rationally corrupt president instead of an irrationally corrupt president.

throwanem 10y ago
I don't. "Rational" in this context just means more effective at screwing the country in favor of self-interest.
wsc981 10y ago
As an European, I sure hope the "rationally" corrupt president won't be elected. I fear that under her leadership chances for a war with Russia would increase and WW3 is not something I look forward to. If a war would happen because of US's interests in Crimea, we would take the hits.
- saiya-jin 10y ago
  well, under Trump, Putin can do almost whatever he wants, without strong opposition. I mean, we all heard his statements/plans. pretty bad choice for europe too, arguably even worse
  - wsc981 10y ago
    Putin hasn't been trying to increase his sphere of influence, unlike the US and the EU. Putin seems more interested in keeping up the status quo, which to me is a more preferable situation. Think about it - how would the US like it if Russia would station it's armies in Mexico or perhaps do military practice in this country? Note that the US has army bases all across the world and instability in many countries has been caused by US policy. Policy which seems to be guided mainly by business interests: - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/15/russia-says-western-investment-in-ukraines-farms-is-a-plot-to-take-over-the-world/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/04/15... - http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303851804579560542284706288 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023038518045795605...
    - bbctol 10y ago
      Wait, you don't consider entering Crimea to be increasing his sphere of influence? Even if you consider that justified, surely it's still expansionist?
      - jessaustin 10y ago
        Crimea was already solidly within that sphere, covered as it is by Russian military installations. It would be nice if the rest of Ukraine could enjoy the benefits of self-determination, but it isn't clear that increased USA involvement is the best way to achieve that.
    - Agathos 10y ago
      > Putin hasn't been trying to increase his sphere of influence What a peculiar thing to say.
jondubois 10y ago
Yes, the cultural differences are massive. In South Korea, if a politician gets involved in shady side-dealings, people march out in the streets by the thousands to demand their immediate resignation. In the US, the same behaviour will actually help you get elected (the corporations who own you will make sure of it). What Hillary Clinton did is the textbook representation of everything that has gone wrong in our society over the past 10 years. I think Trump is horrible as well but if I was American I'd vote for him anyway out of protest.

sho_hn 10y ago

I live in Korea. No particular authority, but if anyone has additional questions I can take a stab at answering.

rjbwork 10y ago
Is this "8 Goddesses" cult thing legit, or is yet another paranoid conspiracy theory meme? It's really hard to tell as someone who doesn't speak Korean. there's just little bits of info leaking out, mostly just talking about Choi Soon-Sil.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- sho_hn 10y ago
  Dunno. The facts on the ground are that Choi's father became an ordained priest in '75 (reportedly he paid handsomely for his ordainment and didn't actually complete theological studies) and set up his own Christian-Shamanistic church. Commentors describe him as having been mostly interested in political gain and using his cult as a means to do so. It's unclear in what capacity his daughter has actually continued to do so. One of Korean's Shaman associations has publically distanced itself from both of them this week, effectively calling them self-appointed charlatans. Basically, cults do exist in Korea, and cults and political leadership have been involved with each other. Whether there's a grand conspiracy I can't say. I'm no fan of religion myself, but in fairness it's important to note that "Shaman" & co are sort of a trigger word for a Western audience, invoking images of the barbarians at the gates - that's our Christian cultural-historic bias at work (I'm originally from Germany). This conflict actually plays out in Korea as well, owing to a large percentage of Christians among the population (how that came to be is in itself a fascinating topic). But really it's just a tree of folk religions. The problem here is how easily it's invoked by cult schemes, I guess.
patrickg_zill 10y ago
What about 8 Goddess, Megalians , and the Megalian woman who had her boyfriend sexually assault girls she didn't like? Has that been proven to be true or is that part still in the rumor category?

yarou 10y ago

It's quite sad how one's mind can be poisoned, corrupted, and manipulated by the loss of a dearly loved one.

hga 10y ago
Yeah, I've seen too much of this with my mother's abuse of my father, and she lost both her parents to assassination, vs. his losing his father to an accident. In all the cases I know of, at least if early enough, this sort of loss really messes up a surviving child.

whack 10y ago

Sounds to me like the president has a multitude of skeletons in her closet, through which she's being blackmailed. Or perhaps she's just a puppet, under someone else's control all along. Maybe I'm just overly cynical, but I'm not too surprised to hear stories like this. Our political process is just so dysfunctional, that I don't think it's possible for a normal, worthy leader to actually win the election. The only way to get to the top is to sell out your integrity in one way or another. We wonder why our leaders are so morally bankrupt, when really, our process is explicitly designed to weed out anyone who isn't.

ionised 10y ago
I'm reminded of a quote (not sure who by, and I'm paraphrasing) along the lines of; "Those who desire power make the worst leaders, those who don't make the best." Basically anyone who wants to be leader, probably shouldn't be. Not sure how you would resolve a dilemma like that though. I've always felt a modern version of Sortition would be ideal; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
- DomreiRoam 10y ago
  You may find this article [1] from the guardian interesting. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jul/18/against-elections-the-case-for-democracy-david-van-reybrouck-review https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jul/18/against-electi...
- bboreham 10y ago
  “The major problem—one of the major problems, for there are several—one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them. To summarize: it is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.” ― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
  - 10y ago

bane 10y ago

Lots of people have questions about the nature of the cult that the president seems to be connected with. In South Korea, just like any country, there's an entire spectrum of minor splinter "cults" along the entire spectrum of available religions. Korea has a surprisingly rich and complex religious landscape ranging from ancient folk practices (often translated as "Shamanism" in Korea) to various Buddhist sects to various flavors Christianity (the current religious majority), Confucian practices and so on. All have deep historic, political and social roots and between the cracks of the formal practices, tons of cults, syncretism, and other practices flourish. For example, it wouldn't be at all unusual for somebody to go to a very formal church on Sunday, attend a Buddhist funeral on Thursday, and go out with friends on Saturday to visit a "fortune teller" before going on a blind date who would supply fortunes based on ancient folk practices. The average person might not even be aware that they are crossing various religious boundaries. For reasons I haven't quite understood, there's also a cultural acceptance that many people wish to become religious leaders of some sort. It's often manifest in members of the majority Christian churches becoming ministers at very high rates and forming their own minor churches. Korea is littered with churches of all sizes. In general this happens in the formal church structure but it's not uncommon for splinter groups to spin out rapidly as well with various modified beliefs or teachings or even forming syncretic cults of some flavor. To give you an idea of how intense religion can be in Korea, it's the only known country to have self converted to Christianity and established an internal proselytizing mechanism before missionaries showed up in the country. Cults are not really accepted in South Korea, most people still look at them as out of the norm, and cult members to be out of the norm, hence the public reaction to the President's connection to a cult. For anybody interested in the shamanistic folk traditions in Korea, I can highly recommend the movie "The Wailing" (2016) as an both a great movie, and contains several brilliantly filmed scenes of some intense shamanistic practices that I've heard described as "deeply authentic" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_South_Korea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_South_Korea http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5215952/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5215952/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wailing_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wailing_(film)

bbctol 10y ago

Ask A Korean is a really good blog if you remain interested in the country. I follow Korean issues less now than I once did, but the author has a nice style and is willing to deal with Korean/American issues complexly.

at-fates-hands 10y ago
How is the Korean media in comparison to say the US or UK? Are they pretty objective, or more in the vein of the US, UK media where its very tabloidish?
- bbctol 10y ago
  The newspapers/TV are plain, if somewhat conservative. However, South Korea has an internet culture that makes America look a decade behind, for better or worse; people get massive amounts of information from social media and citizen journalists, which is one of the reasons a story this weird is stirring up so many conspiracy theories and speculation.

brilliantcode 10y ago

As a Korean, it infuriates me to see a Korean president who genuinely seems to be incapable of making rational decisions with the country's interest at heart. Choi Soon Sil (lovingly called Choi SIRI by the people we'll call her CSS) comes from some Korean shaman society. CSS's father was a leader of some shaman cult and claimed that he could speak to Park Geun Hye's mother who was assassinated by a North Korean agent. The Choi family grew very close to Park Geun Hye, and it was presented that they used their closeness to the First Lady (Park Geun Hye took the role after her mother's death) for profiteering and corruption. After the assassination of Park Chung Hee (Park Geun Hye), President Chun Doo Hwan, a loyal disciple of the deceased president, exiled CSS's father. It is alleged that President Chun Doo Hwan's corruption revelation was orchestrated by CSS to avenge her father. In an economy dominated by a handful of family dynasties, it seems that in order to continue this asymmetrical system that puts so much burden on the Korean people, president's office and the people surrounding it are almost certainly likely to peddle influence which Chaebol (Korean word for conglomerates) gladly pay large amount of sums for (since the return on investment by paying off a Korean politician is massive - you could win military contracts, license for monopoly etc.). This system is now beginning to show cracks. People have completely lost trust in the system. There's even rumours of a military coup, how ironic, that the current president whose father overthrew the first Korean president Rhee with a coup, is now expecting one herself.

devonkim 10y ago

I've heard mention that this cult is somehow related to the Moonies cult that Americans are more familiar with, is there any merit to these claims? I can't find much connection between this and the Moonies in terms of current activities and maybe I'm not looking for the right terms in Korean but it seems like a very tenuous or circumstantial relation, if any. I don't understand why it would even matter if they're connected either. Watching Korean politics growing up I thought what was happening was basically the equivalent of Western tabloid media, but I'm not sure where the absurd starts anymore.