3 ms·

I'm not a minimalist, but I'll be explicit. Pretty much 99% (I made that number up; pretty much everyone) of the people are controlled by impulses and confuse

by hosh 10y ago

I'm not a minimalist, but I'll be explicit. Pretty much 99% (I made that number up; pretty much everyone) of the people are controlled by impulses and confuse them for their real selves. I have seen people who identify themselves as minimalist do the same -- though they might be a slave to an idea rather than to a physical object. I've seen myself slip into that frame from time to time. Depending on who I talk to about this, I might get a thoughtful response, or an angry response. But yeah, unless you are going to be impeccably honest about yourself, you're likely to be a slave to your possession and a consumerist sheep and don't know it. Yet at the same time, within each person, buried under all those layers of consumerist sheep, is an amazing being. It is rare for someone to actualize that, but it's there. If you pay attention, you can see it. And it has nothing to do with your tastes, likes, wants, desires, fears, ambitions, goals, passions, possessions, profession, race, gender, creed, politics, morality, or personality for that matter. This amazing self has nothing to do with the conditioned or social self. And for some reason, people get offended when I dismiss their conditioned self. For me, it is, "hey, look at this amazing being underneath all of that," and the response is, "How dare you! I like my conditioned self just fine, thank you." "Uh, sure, ok..."

abakker 10y ago
Alternatively: my possessions, hobbies, tools are extensions of my real self. I do not NEED them, but I am more actualized when I have them. Do you identify yourself as a software engineer? Do you continue to be one when someone takes your access to all computers away? The computer actualizes part of how you identify yourself. It is hard to think of yourself as a mechanic when you have no ability to act on your talents or skills because of a lack of tools. Consider that maybe instead of 99% of people being consumerist sheep, you do not possess the knowledge or authority to judge accurately when the actions of others are impulsive, or in service to a different ideal. I believe that maybe stripped of all my possessions, socializations, and thought patterns you might indeed find some foundational, unformed version of me. However, in finding that thing, you would have stripped away many of the structures and artifices that I have constructed myself out of. You would find something that was more like an alpha-version, in potentia, stateless. That may be what you want, but it would be incomplete compared to the version of me you would meet in real life.
- hosh 10y ago
  >Alternatively: my possessions, hobbies, tools are extensions of my real self. I do not NEED them, but I am more actualized when I have them. Do you identify yourself as a software engineer? Do you continue to be one when someone takes your access to all computers away? The computer actualizes part of how you identify yourself. It is hard to think of yourself as a mechanic when you have no ability to act on your talents or skills because of a lack of tools. You are confusing your actualization with your identity. What you think of as your "real self" isn't. What you are saying here is the mainstream view of what someone's authentic self is. If you and I make a bet to talk to 100 random strangers in an arbitrary city, likely, all of those 100 people will agree with you and not with me. That's fine with with me. I do not identify myself as a software engineer. Software engineering is a skill I have (for now), and it is a role I adopt. It is a profession I presently have. But this is not me. Skills fade, roles will retire, professions will disappear. I remain. When the time comes, the time comes. That time will come for you as well as everyone else. This is something that meditators and mystics have been saying consistently for a while. I am not the first to say this and I won't be the last. This is something discovered anew for each person that dives into it. Not everyone is exploring this and I don't expect people to. This does not have anything to do with knowledge, authority, or judgement. People are more impulsive than they think they are, and so long as someone is owned their possessions, socialization, and thought patterns, that person is not acting freely. Stripped of all your possessions, socializations, and thought patterns is something far more amazing. This doesn't have to do with what "I want", but has to do with your natural self. No one is making you strip yourself of possessions, socializations, or thought patterns right now, or ever. You are welcomed to think like this and act like you are, and neither require mine's or anyone else's judgement or approval.
  - dwaltrip 10y ago
    Do you believe in materialism? If so, how can the self be anything but the collection of patterns, behaviors, and memories, as seen at a particular moment, that, starting with the initial genetics, have accumulated thus far during a person's life? Through continual interaction with the universe, the accumulation (the "self") constantly changes, as each moment passes by. Occasionally, these changes result in new behaviors that others might describe as "becoming a new person" -- this does not mean that some hidden potential self was finally activated. If you are speaking highly metaphorically, then that is a different matter, of course.

by hosh 10y ago

abakker 10y ago

Alternatively: my possessions, hobbies, tools are extensions of my real self. I do not NEED them, but I am more actualized when I have them. Do you identify yourself as a software engineer? Do you continue to be one when someone takes your access to all computers away? The computer actualizes part of how you identify yourself. It is hard to think of yourself as a mechanic when you have no ability to act on your talents or skills because of a lack of tools. Consider that maybe instead of 99% of people being consumerist sheep, you do not possess the knowledge or authority to judge accurately when the actions of others are impulsive, or in service to a different ideal. I believe that maybe stripped of all my possessions, socializations, and thought patterns you might indeed find some foundational, unformed version of me. However, in finding that thing, you would have stripped away many of the structures and artifices that I have constructed myself out of. You would find something that was more like an alpha-version, in potentia, stateless. That may be what you want, but it would be incomplete compared to the version of me you would meet in real life.

hosh 10y ago
>Alternatively: my possessions, hobbies, tools are extensions of my real self. I do not NEED them, but I am more actualized when I have them. Do you identify yourself as a software engineer? Do you continue to be one when someone takes your access to all computers away? The computer actualizes part of how you identify yourself. It is hard to think of yourself as a mechanic when you have no ability to act on your talents or skills because of a lack of tools. You are confusing your actualization with your identity. What you think of as your "real self" isn't. What you are saying here is the mainstream view of what someone's authentic self is. If you and I make a bet to talk to 100 random strangers in an arbitrary city, likely, all of those 100 people will agree with you and not with me. That's fine with with me. I do not identify myself as a software engineer. Software engineering is a skill I have (for now), and it is a role I adopt. It is a profession I presently have. But this is not me. Skills fade, roles will retire, professions will disappear. I remain. When the time comes, the time comes. That time will come for you as well as everyone else. This is something that meditators and mystics have been saying consistently for a while. I am not the first to say this and I won't be the last. This is something discovered anew for each person that dives into it. Not everyone is exploring this and I don't expect people to. This does not have anything to do with knowledge, authority, or judgement. People are more impulsive than they think they are, and so long as someone is owned their possessions, socialization, and thought patterns, that person is not acting freely. Stripped of all your possessions, socializations, and thought patterns is something far more amazing. This doesn't have to do with what "I want", but has to do with your natural self. No one is making you strip yourself of possessions, socializations, or thought patterns right now, or ever. You are welcomed to think like this and act like you are, and neither require mine's or anyone else's judgement or approval.
- dwaltrip 10y ago
  Do you believe in materialism? If so, how can the self be anything but the collection of patterns, behaviors, and memories, as seen at a particular moment, that, starting with the initial genetics, have accumulated thus far during a person's life? Through continual interaction with the universe, the accumulation (the "self") constantly changes, as each moment passes by. Occasionally, these changes result in new behaviors that others might describe as "becoming a new person" -- this does not mean that some hidden potential self was finally activated. If you are speaking highly metaphorically, then that is a different matter, of course.