4 ms·

Single Mother Facing Prison for Selling Homemade Mexican Dish to Undercover Cop

20 points by protomyth 10y ago

sharemywin 10y ago
wonder how many school bakes sales they've shut down?
- protomyth 10y ago
  We have farmer's markets all over North Dakota and many people bring prepared food also. I can only imagine what would happen if a sting operation happened to arrest all the people who brought baked goods. I would imagine a DA, sheriff, etc. would find themselves unemployed along with any politician who supported such things never mind anything during the actual arrest.
  - BeetleB 10y ago
    Where I live, to be able to sell cooked goods at the farmer's market, you have to get some kinds of licensing, etc. I suspect it will be the same in ND.
    - protomyth 10y ago
      I rather doubt it in ND since I've seen them all summer doing it at the farmer's market and a cop is parked across the street most times. Plenty of groups still have bake sales.
      - BeetleB 10y ago
        >I rather doubt it in ND since I've seen them all summer doing it at the farmer's market and a cop is parked across the street most times. Plenty of groups still have bake sales. Yes, they do that here too. What makes you think these people don't have a license?
        protomyth 10y ago
        Because I know the people and they don't have a license. Businesses have licenses, my friends and neighbors who participate don't.
        BeetleB 10y ago
        Umm...OK - if you've asked them. It's just that getting a license is not complicated, and plenty of regular non-business folks get them to sell at the farmer's market over here. Looking up on ND, it seems the state doesn't have too many health guidelines for individuals selling at the farmer's market. They do say, though, that individual counties may have stricter rules. That may explain it.
        protomyth 10y ago
        A county commissioner who gets grandma or a mother of a small child thrown in jail will not be county commissioner[1] for long (or perhaps even a resident of the county). Getting a license is a waste except for those who actually want to run real businesses. 1) I would imagine the sheriff is going to lose his/her job too
        BeetleB 10y ago
        >A county commissioner who gets grandma or a mother of a small child thrown in jail will not be county commissioner[1] for long (or perhaps even a resident of the county). Getting a license is a waste except for those who actually want to run real businesses. There are ways to enforce without people being thrown in jail. In my state/county, the organizers of the farmer's market simply will not let you set up a stall/sell without one. Everyone has to preregister and show proof of license. No jails needed.
  - edblarney 10y ago
    Where I'm from - Farmers leave veggies at a stand on the side of the road, you take what you want and leave money in the bucket. No kidding, bucket of money by the side of the road. Seeing that re-invigorated my faith in humanity.
- digikata 10y ago
  In my area, all of them. Basically all school & pta functions in my area eschew any homemade baked goods for reasons of food safety regulation or insurance policy coverage. I think it's a terrible shame that such a humanistic level of neighbourly personal/cultural exchange has been extinguished.
  - protomyth 10y ago
    Yep, a community activity dies and people wonder why we are less connected than before. The food safety angle is a crock given what happens in our fast food restaurants. The concern for safety actually subtracts from the overall safety of a community. Never mind the increased burden to poorer families to participate in events.
  - edblarney 10y ago
    Sad. It's probably not even a legal issue, so much as an insurance thing. I wonder if there could be a special law passed for such things, i.e. you participate and you 'waive your right to sue' kind of thing?
    - digikata 10y ago
      Private companies/organizations could be started if it were just an insurance thing, but it's a little of both, and the food regulations are the difficult ones to avoid. That does take sustained lobbying.
jMyles 10y ago
> It's true that McDaniel didn't make the law. But the people who did probably intended for her to exercise discretion in cases like this one, where the alleged perpetrator didn't really do anything wrong. ...but this is the exact reason that these things can't be left in the hands of the executive anymore. They don't make good decisions, and with the internet, promulgation and understanding of the laws is much easier than ever before.
- edblarney 10y ago
  If McDonald's sold food without food inspections, the same people defending here here - would riot. She likely did do something wrong - you can't just go and cook food and sell it without the proper license = food inspection etc.. Obviously, she should be not facing any jail time, and a warning should suffice. But let's not avoid the reality of this - we either have decent regulation or not. The issue here 'proportionality' not 'culpability'. Give her a 'speeding ticket' and it should be over.
  - jMyles 10y ago
    To be clear: it's not at all obvious to me why, in the internet age, we need any sort of violence in order to regulate food. I am happy to let the government be completely relieved from this obligation. And regardless, whatever the law is, I'm happy to see it enforced, vigorously and to-the-letter. Hoping against the odds for executive "discretion" to result in anything but fomenting of privilege is simply contrary to the evidence of its conduct thus far. TL;DR: Few laws; vigorous, robotic enforcement.
    - edblarney 10y ago
      "we need any sort of violence in order to regulate food. I a" + We need laws to regulate food esp. hygiene and sanitary standards. If you want to know why this is, then visit any less civilized place and look around. Restaurants are thin margin places - some of them will cut corners, do all sorts of stuff otherwise. + All laws need enforcement - and they are enforced with the threat of fines, confiscation, and ultimately the threat of violence. For the same reason we need 'the threat of violence' to manage traffic, borders, and everything else. The only time it's not obvious is when there is no physicality to the crime, i.e. fraud, corruption etc. but even then the 'threat of violence' is there when it comes to arrest/incarceration etc..
rokosbasilisk 10y ago
this isnt uncommon. my favorite ice cream maker got shut down on similar charges.
numtel 10y ago
In order to get around this legal issue, could someone accept money only to cover the cost of the groceries? There would be some markup but, on paper, the preparation/cooking would not be part of the transaction. Subverting zoning and health regulations does open a very real possibility for people to get sick though. I wonder if a product could be created that would scan individual food items for illness causing pathogens, allowing people to legally trade food without a licensed kitchen.
- protomyth 10y ago
  > Subverting zoning and health regulations does open a very real possibility for people to get sick though. That's a load of garbage. Zoning and health are good things for actual businesses, but doing something on an individual level should be between two people. The courts can handle it if something goes wrong. Scale matters, and there is a long tradition of bake sales and the like in the US. Do you expect babysitters to have a business license and be inspected? How about the neighborhood kid you get to cut your lawn? Not having a firewall between individuals / amateurs and actual business rules is just wrong.
  - numtel 10y ago
    It would be great if we had policies that supported amateur businesses but the costs and red-tape are currently overwhelming. If I prepare a meal for my neighbor for a few dollars and then they subsequently have to spend a few days in hospital because they got E.Coli due to my accidental mishandling of some spinach, should I be liable for their medical costs? For how over-reaching New Zealand's government is about gardening, they do have an interesting plan with accident insurance, centralizing the risk for accidents of all kinds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_Compensation_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_Compensation_Corporat... With tort reform like that, could it more reasonable for people to operate small-scale, less-regulated businesses?
    - protomyth 10y ago
      > It would be great if we had policies that supported amateur businesses but the costs and red-tape are currently overwhelming. In rural America, we don't have those rules because we don't need them. > If I prepare a meal for my neighbor for a few dollars and then they subsequently have to spend a few days in hospital because they got E.Coli due to my accidental mishandling of some spinach, should I be liable for their medical costs? Yep, they are going to sue you or maybe not. If you buy something at a bake sale you should understand you are taking a chance. If you decide to sue, I guess you find out how your peers think about who is responsible. > With tort reform like that, could it more reasonable for people to operate small-scale, less-regulated businesses? If you open an actual business, I'm perfectly fine with you obeying the regulations and having them in the first place. I am not fine with arresting people for bake sales and making some food for you are your request. There is a simple, logical difference of scale between these activities and only an absolutist government or individuals cannot distinguish between them
blacksmith_tb 10y ago
It's one thing that these laws are on the books, but it astounds me that police departments are going to such lengths to enforce them. A sting operation to catch one unregulated cook? I can think of dozens of more serious crimes that need their attention first.
- zmonkeyz 10y ago
  Yeah but # of arrests looks good in the end of year evaluation.
Mathnerd314 10y ago
The California Homemade Food Act FAQ: http://www.theselc.org/cottage_food_law_faq http://www.theselc.org/cottage_food_law_faq
- DerekL 10y ago
  I read that, and I see that ceviche is NOT on the list of allowed foods for a Cottage Food Operation.
Mz 10y ago
Well, I am all for food inspection laws, but the picture painted by the article does not indicate this was intended to be a business. It is more like if you ate at a friend's house and helped cover the cost of the meal because the friend was poor. We don't have to declare taxes if we make less than $600 on some activity. It isn't considered a real business if you only occasionally make a few bucks here and there. This "sting" operation targeting a pot luck group seems ridiculous. I was a military wife. We needed to go through training to participate in certain things, like food sales as a means to raise funds. I never bothered to go through that training. It never prevented me from bringing a dish from home to a potluck meal at the unit. As someone who gets food poisoning easily, I am all for there being strict laws concerning even small scale commercial food things. But this does not sound like it really was a commercial venture. This is just ridiculous. Surely, we have more serious concerns for our cops to be attending to than trying to break a potluck ring. Sheesh.

20 points by protomyth 10y ago

sharemywin 10y ago

wonder how many school bakes sales they've shut down?

protomyth 10y ago
We have farmer's markets all over North Dakota and many people bring prepared food also. I can only imagine what would happen if a sting operation happened to arrest all the people who brought baked goods. I would imagine a DA, sheriff, etc. would find themselves unemployed along with any politician who supported such things never mind anything during the actual arrest.
- BeetleB 10y ago
  Where I live, to be able to sell cooked goods at the farmer's market, you have to get some kinds of licensing, etc. I suspect it will be the same in ND.
  - protomyth 10y ago
    I rather doubt it in ND since I've seen them all summer doing it at the farmer's market and a cop is parked across the street most times. Plenty of groups still have bake sales.
    - BeetleB 10y ago
      >I rather doubt it in ND since I've seen them all summer doing it at the farmer's market and a cop is parked across the street most times. Plenty of groups still have bake sales. Yes, they do that here too. What makes you think these people don't have a license?
      - protomyth 10y ago
        Because I know the people and they don't have a license. Businesses have licenses, my friends and neighbors who participate don't.
        BeetleB 10y ago
        Umm...OK - if you've asked them. It's just that getting a license is not complicated, and plenty of regular non-business folks get them to sell at the farmer's market over here. Looking up on ND, it seems the state doesn't have too many health guidelines for individuals selling at the farmer's market. They do say, though, that individual counties may have stricter rules. That may explain it.
        protomyth 10y ago
        A county commissioner who gets grandma or a mother of a small child thrown in jail will not be county commissioner[1] for long (or perhaps even a resident of the county). Getting a license is a waste except for those who actually want to run real businesses. 1) I would imagine the sheriff is going to lose his/her job too
        BeetleB 10y ago
        >A county commissioner who gets grandma or a mother of a small child thrown in jail will not be county commissioner[1] for long (or perhaps even a resident of the county). Getting a license is a waste except for those who actually want to run real businesses. There are ways to enforce without people being thrown in jail. In my state/county, the organizers of the farmer's market simply will not let you set up a stall/sell without one. Everyone has to preregister and show proof of license. No jails needed.
- edblarney 10y ago
  Where I'm from - Farmers leave veggies at a stand on the side of the road, you take what you want and leave money in the bucket. No kidding, bucket of money by the side of the road. Seeing that re-invigorated my faith in humanity.
digikata 10y ago
In my area, all of them. Basically all school & pta functions in my area eschew any homemade baked goods for reasons of food safety regulation or insurance policy coverage. I think it's a terrible shame that such a humanistic level of neighbourly personal/cultural exchange has been extinguished.
- protomyth 10y ago
  Yep, a community activity dies and people wonder why we are less connected than before. The food safety angle is a crock given what happens in our fast food restaurants. The concern for safety actually subtracts from the overall safety of a community. Never mind the increased burden to poorer families to participate in events.
- edblarney 10y ago
  Sad. It's probably not even a legal issue, so much as an insurance thing. I wonder if there could be a special law passed for such things, i.e. you participate and you 'waive your right to sue' kind of thing?
  - digikata 10y ago
    Private companies/organizations could be started if it were just an insurance thing, but it's a little of both, and the food regulations are the difficult ones to avoid. That does take sustained lobbying.

jMyles 10y ago

> It's true that McDaniel didn't make the law. But the people who did probably intended for her to exercise discretion in cases like this one, where the alleged perpetrator didn't really do anything wrong. ...but this is the exact reason that these things can't be left in the hands of the executive anymore. They don't make good decisions, and with the internet, promulgation and understanding of the laws is much easier than ever before.

edblarney 10y ago
If McDonald's sold food without food inspections, the same people defending here here - would riot. She likely did do something wrong - you can't just go and cook food and sell it without the proper license = food inspection etc.. Obviously, she should be not facing any jail time, and a warning should suffice. But let's not avoid the reality of this - we either have decent regulation or not. The issue here 'proportionality' not 'culpability'. Give her a 'speeding ticket' and it should be over.
- jMyles 10y ago
  To be clear: it's not at all obvious to me why, in the internet age, we need any sort of violence in order to regulate food. I am happy to let the government be completely relieved from this obligation. And regardless, whatever the law is, I'm happy to see it enforced, vigorously and to-the-letter. Hoping against the odds for executive "discretion" to result in anything but fomenting of privilege is simply contrary to the evidence of its conduct thus far. TL;DR: Few laws; vigorous, robotic enforcement.
  - edblarney 10y ago
    "we need any sort of violence in order to regulate food. I a" + We need laws to regulate food esp. hygiene and sanitary standards. If you want to know why this is, then visit any less civilized place and look around. Restaurants are thin margin places - some of them will cut corners, do all sorts of stuff otherwise. + All laws need enforcement - and they are enforced with the threat of fines, confiscation, and ultimately the threat of violence. For the same reason we need 'the threat of violence' to manage traffic, borders, and everything else. The only time it's not obvious is when there is no physicality to the crime, i.e. fraud, corruption etc. but even then the 'threat of violence' is there when it comes to arrest/incarceration etc..

rokosbasilisk 10y ago

this isnt uncommon. my favorite ice cream maker got shut down on similar charges.

numtel 10y ago

In order to get around this legal issue, could someone accept money only to cover the cost of the groceries? There would be some markup but, on paper, the preparation/cooking would not be part of the transaction. Subverting zoning and health regulations does open a very real possibility for people to get sick though. I wonder if a product could be created that would scan individual food items for illness causing pathogens, allowing people to legally trade food without a licensed kitchen.

protomyth 10y ago
> Subverting zoning and health regulations does open a very real possibility for people to get sick though. That's a load of garbage. Zoning and health are good things for actual businesses, but doing something on an individual level should be between two people. The courts can handle it if something goes wrong. Scale matters, and there is a long tradition of bake sales and the like in the US. Do you expect babysitters to have a business license and be inspected? How about the neighborhood kid you get to cut your lawn? Not having a firewall between individuals / amateurs and actual business rules is just wrong.
- numtel 10y ago
  It would be great if we had policies that supported amateur businesses but the costs and red-tape are currently overwhelming. If I prepare a meal for my neighbor for a few dollars and then they subsequently have to spend a few days in hospital because they got E.Coli due to my accidental mishandling of some spinach, should I be liable for their medical costs? For how over-reaching New Zealand's government is about gardening, they do have an interesting plan with accident insurance, centralizing the risk for accidents of all kinds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_Compensation_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_Compensation_Corporat... With tort reform like that, could it more reasonable for people to operate small-scale, less-regulated businesses?
  - protomyth 10y ago
    > It would be great if we had policies that supported amateur businesses but the costs and red-tape are currently overwhelming. In rural America, we don't have those rules because we don't need them. > If I prepare a meal for my neighbor for a few dollars and then they subsequently have to spend a few days in hospital because they got E.Coli due to my accidental mishandling of some spinach, should I be liable for their medical costs? Yep, they are going to sue you or maybe not. If you buy something at a bake sale you should understand you are taking a chance. If you decide to sue, I guess you find out how your peers think about who is responsible. > With tort reform like that, could it more reasonable for people to operate small-scale, less-regulated businesses? If you open an actual business, I'm perfectly fine with you obeying the regulations and having them in the first place. I am not fine with arresting people for bake sales and making some food for you are your request. There is a simple, logical difference of scale between these activities and only an absolutist government or individuals cannot distinguish between them

blacksmith_tb 10y ago

It's one thing that these laws are on the books, but it astounds me that police departments are going to such lengths to enforce them. A sting operation to catch one unregulated cook? I can think of dozens of more serious crimes that need their attention first.

zmonkeyz 10y ago
Yeah but # of arrests looks good in the end of year evaluation.

Mathnerd314 10y ago

The California Homemade Food Act FAQ: http://www.theselc.org/cottage_food_law_faq http://www.theselc.org/cottage_food_law_faq

DerekL 10y ago
I read that, and I see that ceviche is NOT on the list of allowed foods for a Cottage Food Operation.

Mz 10y ago

Well, I am all for food inspection laws, but the picture painted by the article does not indicate this was intended to be a business. It is more like if you ate at a friend's house and helped cover the cost of the meal because the friend was poor. We don't have to declare taxes if we make less than $600 on some activity. It isn't considered a real business if you only occasionally make a few bucks here and there. This "sting" operation targeting a pot luck group seems ridiculous. I was a military wife. We needed to go through training to participate in certain things, like food sales as a means to raise funds. I never bothered to go through that training. It never prevented me from bringing a dish from home to a potluck meal at the unit. As someone who gets food poisoning easily, I am all for there being strict laws concerning even small scale commercial food things. But this does not sound like it really was a commercial venture. This is just ridiculous. Surely, we have more serious concerns for our cops to be attending to than trying to break a potluck ring. Sheesh.