3 ms·

You cite "ignorance of what a GMO really is" - what do you think they're misinformed about?

by no_wave 10y ago

mi100hael 10y ago
Not OP, but I get the impression a lot of anti-GMO folks think that GMO crops are synthetic, irradiated, mutant organisms when in fact they are still just conventionally-grown, chemically-organic plants. In other words, nutters think GMOs are Spiderman when they're actually just Batman.
- dragonwriter 10y ago
  Moreover, irradiated mutant plants (and those produced by exposure to chemical mutagens) are not GMOs, and qualify for organic labelling.
BinaryIdiot 10y ago
Almost every person I know who is on the organic bandwagon are very insistent, despite the evidence I have provided them, that organic food uses no pesticides and is better for you because it's "natural" whereas GMOs are made by companies who only care about money and are not tested enough and even if they were tested enough they could still do something bad because "you never know". Ultimately it comes down to an ignorance in how the farming process works and an ignorance in how genetics work when modifying plants either in a laboratory or though breading. I've also never met a person who supports organic who also knew about the practice of using radioactivity to cause random mutations in organic farming.
- utternerd 10y ago
  All of the above reasons are why I stopped engaging with the aforementioned "natural fallacy" folks long ago. It's painful, and seems to get nowhere regardless of how many facts are throw at them.
  - grzm 10y ago
    "seems to get nowhere regardless of how many facts are throw at them." If you're engaging someone who doesn't agree with you on an issue, purely throwing facts at them is very unlikely to convince them of your point, and is going to end up frustrating both sides. Human psychology just doesn't work that way. We're not purely rational, evidence-based beings. How much time have you taken to understand their positions and the reasons they hold them? Are they just irrational? Ignorant? Obstinate? Willfully uneducated? If you think this is the case, how can you convince them anyway? After all, they're irrational, ignorant, obstinate, and willfully uneducated :) If you can understand (that's not necessarily the same as agree with) where they're coming from, that goes a long way towards understanding how you can reach some kind of shared understanding and agreement where none existed before. That might seem like it's a slower process, and takes too much time. But if it actually works, and the other method (throwing facts) doesn't, it's actually accomplished something. There's a lot of contentious issues right now that are very important for us to reconcile. Working on skills like this, figuring out how to come to agreements and compromises, working solutions, is vital.
    - BinaryIdiot 10y ago
      I am absolutely awful at this but you're completely right. I've never had facts change anyone's mind but at the same time I've been told I'm a "robot" regarding emotions so I have changed my mind in the past but I don't think that makes me better. In fact it seems I may be deficient in emotions compared to many that I interact with. So I _try_ to figure out where they're coming from and relate to it. But I can never do it. I've never figured out a way to argue with someone in a productive way. In fact if you know of any good reads on the topic I'd love to check them out. I've been told I'm not empathetic enough though I try to be and I'm not entirely sure how to fix it.
      - grzm 10y ago
        Thanks for taking the time to respond. I have a really hard time with this, too. I've seen the problems it's caused me personally and in the US with its crippling polarization. There have been some discussions around HN recently: - Crocker's Rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12881288 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12881288 - Principle of Charity: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12774600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12774600 - Rapaport's Rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12774692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12774692 I also found Jonathan Haidt's "The Righteous Mind"[0] really worthwhile. I mean to read it again in the next week or so. What I find particularly impressive with his work is that he found that his research actually changed his own thinking. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt And you know, re-reading your response "I've never had facts change anyone's mind", I think even if you don't change someone's mind at the time, finding some common ground, something you agree on is a worthwhile accomplishment. Sometimes it seems the gulf between us is so large. Recognizing that it might not be is reassuring. I hope you find these useful!
nxc182 10y ago
Try asking the typical anti-GMOer what a GMO is and you'll get your answer. To start with, many don't know what GMO stands for or the basic concept of recombinant genetics. While perhaps a bit of a hyperbole, this video lines up pretty well with me real-world experience (unfortunately): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzEr23XJwFY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzEr23XJwFY
Spivak 10y ago
I mean the reality is right in the name -- I'm sure that you can find enough uninformed people to make a shame-video, but you could do that for any topic. My suspicion is that they distrust the primary sources because they have significant lobbying power and a strong financial incentive to push the product regardless of the long term effects or societal harm it might cause.
thefalcon 10y ago
So my guilty pleasure is Big Brother (US version) and I watched recently as the "houseguests" were reading product labels (they get very bored in that house) and began discussing what GMOs were. They all agreed they were terrible. None of them had a clue what they were ("it's like chemicals or something, I think. Yeah.") Given two products on a shelf, one labeled "non-GMO", they would blindly choose that one. I imagine this is most of America.
BurningFrog 10y ago
I suspect most GMO opponents thing GMO is some kind of substance that the food contains.

You cite "ignorance of what a GMO really is" - what do you think they're misinformed about?

by no_wave 10y ago

You cite "ignorance of what a GMO really is" - what do you think they're misinformed about?

Not OP, but I get the impression a lot of anti-GMO folks think that GMO crops are synthetic, irradiated, mutant organisms when in fact they are still just conventionally-grown, chemically-organic plants. In other words, nutters think GMOs are Spiderman when they're actually just Batman.

dragonwriter 10y ago
Moreover, irradiated mutant plants (and those produced by exposure to chemical mutagens) are not GMOs, and qualify for organic labelling.

BinaryIdiot 10y ago

Almost every person I know who is on the organic bandwagon are very insistent, despite the evidence I have provided them, that organic food uses no pesticides and is better for you because it's "natural" whereas GMOs are made by companies who only care about money and are not tested enough and even if they were tested enough they could still do something bad because "you never know". Ultimately it comes down to an ignorance in how the farming process works and an ignorance in how genetics work when modifying plants either in a laboratory or though breading. I've also never met a person who supports organic who also knew about the practice of using radioactivity to cause random mutations in organic farming.

utternerd 10y ago
All of the above reasons are why I stopped engaging with the aforementioned "natural fallacy" folks long ago. It's painful, and seems to get nowhere regardless of how many facts are throw at them.
- grzm 10y ago
  "seems to get nowhere regardless of how many facts are throw at them." If you're engaging someone who doesn't agree with you on an issue, purely throwing facts at them is very unlikely to convince them of your point, and is going to end up frustrating both sides. Human psychology just doesn't work that way. We're not purely rational, evidence-based beings. How much time have you taken to understand their positions and the reasons they hold them? Are they just irrational? Ignorant? Obstinate? Willfully uneducated? If you think this is the case, how can you convince them anyway? After all, they're irrational, ignorant, obstinate, and willfully uneducated :) If you can understand (that's not necessarily the same as agree with) where they're coming from, that goes a long way towards understanding how you can reach some kind of shared understanding and agreement where none existed before. That might seem like it's a slower process, and takes too much time. But if it actually works, and the other method (throwing facts) doesn't, it's actually accomplished something. There's a lot of contentious issues right now that are very important for us to reconcile. Working on skills like this, figuring out how to come to agreements and compromises, working solutions, is vital.
  - BinaryIdiot 10y ago
    I am absolutely awful at this but you're completely right. I've never had facts change anyone's mind but at the same time I've been told I'm a "robot" regarding emotions so I have changed my mind in the past but I don't think that makes me better. In fact it seems I may be deficient in emotions compared to many that I interact with. So I _try_ to figure out where they're coming from and relate to it. But I can never do it. I've never figured out a way to argue with someone in a productive way. In fact if you know of any good reads on the topic I'd love to check them out. I've been told I'm not empathetic enough though I try to be and I'm not entirely sure how to fix it.
    - grzm 10y ago
      Thanks for taking the time to respond. I have a really hard time with this, too. I've seen the problems it's caused me personally and in the US with its crippling polarization. There have been some discussions around HN recently: - Crocker's Rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12881288 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12881288 - Principle of Charity: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12774600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12774600 - Rapaport's Rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12774692 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12774692 I also found Jonathan Haidt's "The Righteous Mind"[0] really worthwhile. I mean to read it again in the next week or so. What I find particularly impressive with his work is that he found that his research actually changed his own thinking. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Haidt And you know, re-reading your response "I've never had facts change anyone's mind", I think even if you don't change someone's mind at the time, finding some common ground, something you agree on is a worthwhile accomplishment. Sometimes it seems the gulf between us is so large. Recognizing that it might not be is reassuring. I hope you find these useful!

nxc182 10y ago

Try asking the typical anti-GMOer what a GMO is and you'll get your answer. To start with, many don't know what GMO stands for or the basic concept of recombinant genetics. While perhaps a bit of a hyperbole, this video lines up pretty well with me real-world experience (unfortunately): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzEr23XJwFY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzEr23XJwFY

Spivak 10y ago

I mean the reality is right in the name -- I'm sure that you can find enough uninformed people to make a shame-video, but you could do that for any topic. My suspicion is that they distrust the primary sources because they have significant lobbying power and a strong financial incentive to push the product regardless of the long term effects or societal harm it might cause.

thefalcon 10y ago

So my guilty pleasure is Big Brother (US version) and I watched recently as the "houseguests" were reading product labels (they get very bored in that house) and began discussing what GMOs were. They all agreed they were terrible. None of them had a clue what they were ("it's like chemicals or something, I think. Yeah.") Given two products on a shelf, one labeled "non-GMO", they would blindly choose that one. I imagine this is most of America.

BurningFrog 10y ago

I suspect most GMO opponents thing GMO is some kind of substance that the food contains.