9 ms·

That's true. And unfortunately the act itself usually gets tied to other issues every time it's discussed. Human trafficking for example. I wish people were mo

by howeyc 10y ago

That's true. And unfortunately the act itself usually gets tied to other issues every time it's discussed. Human trafficking for example. I wish people were more willing to separate the act of "consenting adults doing a financial transaction" from all the surrounding "badness" but that rarely happens.

jessedhillon 10y ago
You can't advocate for radical liberties without having a serious discussion about the externalities created thereby, and who's going to pay for them. Handwaving human trafficking as something inconsequential "that rarely happens" is the beginning to a position centered on "muh freedoms," than on personal responsibility.
- fwn 10y ago
  Having sex with whoever you decide. > radical liberties
- howeyc 10y ago
  How is making something that is happening between consenting adults legal causing externalities that don't already exist by it being illegal? Also, I wasn't insinuating that human trafficking is inconsequential, or that it's even rare, I don't know if it is or isn't. I was merely stating that it is a separate act/crime. Not all prostitutes are created as a result of human trafficking. I'm all for stopping sex that is not consensual. Also, I see "muh freedoms" and personal responsibility as intertwined ideas, I'm not sure I see why you think they are opposed. If I'm free to fuck whoever I want, and another is also free to do the same (regardless of whether or not there is a financial transaction at the same time), then we are responsible for our own sex lives, yes? The state is not involved (I get "muh freedoms").
  - jessedhillon 10y ago
    > or that it's even rare If we can't even agree that the phrase "[something] rarely happens" means to say that something is rare, then I don't think there's any hope for further debate.
    - howeyc 10y ago
      What? We are definitely talking past one another. My point is that prostitution and human trafficking are two separate activities. The frequency upon which either occurs in society is unknown to me. I am attempting to convey that I think prostitution should be legal. Human trafficking should continue to be illegal. And society in a general sense seems to have trouble separating the two when discussing this topic.
      - jessedhillon 10y ago
        I think I misread your original comment to imply that trafficking rarely happens, sorry for the misunderstanding.
- imgabe 10y ago
  Prostitution is illegal now and human trafficking exists now. Making prostitution legal cannot "create" human trafficking as an externality, because it already exists. How is adding government oversight to prostitution going to make illegal activity more likely rather than less? Is it somehow going to be easier for a brothel to engage in human trafficking if they have to be licensed and inspected by the government?
  - aninhumer 10y ago
    While I think legalising prostitution would be beneficial, I think there is an argument that doing so would lead to more trafficking, which should not be ignored. Namely, that legalising prostitution may increase demand much more than it increases consensual supply, thus creating a larger market for trafficked prostitutes.
    - 0really 10y ago
      You make a good point and this point has indeed been argued. I can't speak for the quality of the research, but one conclusion was that if demand exceeds domestic supply, legalization will increase trafficking in high income countries. Which makes sense from an economic point of view. I still think the problem is the trafficking and not the prostitution so much, and that all efforts should be put towards combatting trafficking by any means possible. Even if protitution was legalized, I have no problems convicting johns for enabling or benefiting from human trafficking, if done so knowingly. This isn't much different from age of consent and could be solved in a similar way.
    - jamez1 10y ago
      You make a distinction between consensual supply and non-consensual supply, but you don't do the same for demand? When prostitution is legalized, the distinction then exists for demand. What has to happen for this to increase trafficking is that non-consensual demand must be bigger than the totality of demand beforehand.
      - aninhumer 10y ago
verbify 10y ago
I believe prostitution should be legal, but I think the issue is still tied to trafficking. It's a lot more difficult to ensure that people are there consensually when brothels are driven underground. How can we possibly police every single 'massage parlour'. On the other hand, legal brothels could have an extra tax that paid for social workers that ensured the brothels were compliant - that sex workers weren't intimidated by their customers or bosses. It will also lead to healthier outcomes - we can then test people to make sure diseases weren't being spread. Unfortunately people learn nothing from sex-ed stats - 'abstinence only' makes thing worse.
- euyyn 10y ago
  > legal brothels could have an extra tax that paid for social workers that ensured the brothels were compliant Then why would an underground "massage parlour" want to go legal?
  - mcphage 10y ago
    > Then why would an underground "massage parlour" want to go legal? It wouldn't, but why would a person go to an underground "massage parlor" when there are cleaner, less skeevy, fully legal alternates? Just like legit legal music sources online cut back music sharing, legit brothels may cut back the demand for underground alternates.
- worik 10y ago
  We have legal prostitution in my country (Aotearoa). We do have some problems with trafficked sex workers, but the police investigate them as crimes. The other prostitutes can cooperate with the police without fear.
  - ad-hominem 10y ago
    Since I had to look it up, everybody else in the world calls this place New Zealand.
  - 0really 10y ago
yason 10y ago
The primary reason why human trafficking is often tied to prostitution is that human trafficking must happen underground. In contrast, in countries which have legal bordellos the employment, management, taxation, and state governance of prostitution is much more transparent. If prostitution is legal and open it's more difficult to use it for human trafficking. Making prostitution illegal is like making rain illegal: there have always been and there will always be people who Then, on the other hand, the cases where prostitution is abused for human trafficking we can actually ram down on the human trafficking issues directly as prostitution itself won't be another question.
- 0really 10y ago
  Criminalizing prostitution also further victimizes the victims of human trafficking. Prostitutes that have been human trafficked risk arrest and/or deportation just for stepping forward and exposing the human traffickers. Guess whose interest that plays into?
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

by howeyc 10y ago

jessedhillon 10y ago

You can't advocate for radical liberties without having a serious discussion about the externalities created thereby, and who's going to pay for them. Handwaving human trafficking as something inconsequential "that rarely happens" is the beginning to a position centered on "muh freedoms," than on personal responsibility.

fwn 10y ago
Having sex with whoever you decide. > radical liberties
howeyc 10y ago
How is making something that is happening between consenting adults legal causing externalities that don't already exist by it being illegal? Also, I wasn't insinuating that human trafficking is inconsequential, or that it's even rare, I don't know if it is or isn't. I was merely stating that it is a separate act/crime. Not all prostitutes are created as a result of human trafficking. I'm all for stopping sex that is not consensual. Also, I see "muh freedoms" and personal responsibility as intertwined ideas, I'm not sure I see why you think they are opposed. If I'm free to fuck whoever I want, and another is also free to do the same (regardless of whether or not there is a financial transaction at the same time), then we are responsible for our own sex lives, yes? The state is not involved (I get "muh freedoms").
- jessedhillon 10y ago
  > or that it's even rare If we can't even agree that the phrase "[something] rarely happens" means to say that something is rare, then I don't think there's any hope for further debate.
  - howeyc 10y ago
    What? We are definitely talking past one another. My point is that prostitution and human trafficking are two separate activities. The frequency upon which either occurs in society is unknown to me. I am attempting to convey that I think prostitution should be legal. Human trafficking should continue to be illegal. And society in a general sense seems to have trouble separating the two when discussing this topic.
    - jessedhillon 10y ago
      I think I misread your original comment to imply that trafficking rarely happens, sorry for the misunderstanding.
imgabe 10y ago
Prostitution is illegal now and human trafficking exists now. Making prostitution legal cannot "create" human trafficking as an externality, because it already exists. How is adding government oversight to prostitution going to make illegal activity more likely rather than less? Is it somehow going to be easier for a brothel to engage in human trafficking if they have to be licensed and inspected by the government?
- aninhumer 10y ago
  While I think legalising prostitution would be beneficial, I think there is an argument that doing so would lead to more trafficking, which should not be ignored. Namely, that legalising prostitution may increase demand much more than it increases consensual supply, thus creating a larger market for trafficked prostitutes.
  - 0really 10y ago
    You make a good point and this point has indeed been argued. I can't speak for the quality of the research, but one conclusion was that if demand exceeds domestic supply, legalization will increase trafficking in high income countries. Which makes sense from an economic point of view. I still think the problem is the trafficking and not the prostitution so much, and that all efforts should be put towards combatting trafficking by any means possible. Even if protitution was legalized, I have no problems convicting johns for enabling or benefiting from human trafficking, if done so knowingly. This isn't much different from age of consent and could be solved in a similar way.
  - jamez1 10y ago
    You make a distinction between consensual supply and non-consensual supply, but you don't do the same for demand? When prostitution is legalized, the distinction then exists for demand. What has to happen for this to increase trafficking is that non-consensual demand must be bigger than the totality of demand beforehand.
    - aninhumer 10y ago

verbify 10y ago

I believe prostitution should be legal, but I think the issue is still tied to trafficking. It's a lot more difficult to ensure that people are there consensually when brothels are driven underground. How can we possibly police every single 'massage parlour'. On the other hand, legal brothels could have an extra tax that paid for social workers that ensured the brothels were compliant - that sex workers weren't intimidated by their customers or bosses. It will also lead to healthier outcomes - we can then test people to make sure diseases weren't being spread. Unfortunately people learn nothing from sex-ed stats - 'abstinence only' makes thing worse.

euyyn 10y ago
> legal brothels could have an extra tax that paid for social workers that ensured the brothels were compliant Then why would an underground "massage parlour" want to go legal?
- mcphage 10y ago
  > Then why would an underground "massage parlour" want to go legal? It wouldn't, but why would a person go to an underground "massage parlor" when there are cleaner, less skeevy, fully legal alternates? Just like legit legal music sources online cut back music sharing, legit brothels may cut back the demand for underground alternates.
worik 10y ago
We have legal prostitution in my country (Aotearoa). We do have some problems with trafficked sex workers, but the police investigate them as crimes. The other prostitutes can cooperate with the police without fear.
- ad-hominem 10y ago
  Since I had to look it up, everybody else in the world calls this place New Zealand.
- 0really 10y ago

yason 10y ago

The primary reason why human trafficking is often tied to prostitution is that human trafficking must happen underground. In contrast, in countries which have legal bordellos the employment, management, taxation, and state governance of prostitution is much more transparent. If prostitution is legal and open it's more difficult to use it for human trafficking. Making prostitution illegal is like making rain illegal: there have always been and there will always be people who Then, on the other hand, the cases where prostitution is abused for human trafficking we can actually ram down on the human trafficking issues directly as prostitution itself won't be another question.

0really 10y ago
Criminalizing prostitution also further victimizes the victims of human trafficking. Prostitutes that have been human trafficked risk arrest and/or deportation just for stepping forward and exposing the human traffickers. Guess whose interest that plays into?

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]