7 ms·

If you took a less condescending tone your argument might be more persuasive with a wider audience.

by 1_2__3 10y ago

dahart 10y ago
Sorry about that, I sometimes do get condescending when I feel strongly and am pretty certain that I'm right. It is a problem, and I do want to learn how to make a strong point and not be condescending. Do you feel like my language was more condescending than the comment I replied to? I reacted to what I felt was more or less outright sexist language. "There is nothing to support the author's typical feminist schtick of using diversity as a shorthand for blaming white men for the problems observed." I realize I may be wrong, but I have to admit that I felt like my language, while a little more personal, was more measured and less condescending than that.
- saint_fiasco 10y ago
  "Does that comment scare you? You sound very defensive. I'm sorry to inform you that we do have a discourse problem that is well documented, and you have identified yourself as part of the problem." That was your comment. I changed a couple of words so it would look like it was directed at you. Calling people defensive is very condescending and shitty, because it leaves people in a position where they have to choose between responding (and "proving you right", since they are now more "defensive") or leaving the conversation (and letting you "win" the argument by default).
  - dahart 10y ago
    Yes, agreed, I was condescending, and I will do better next time. To be honest, I've learned a lot about how to post civilly over the years on HN, and I still make mistakes. My post above is not an example of my best work. ;) But - answer me honestly - do you think what I said is less accurate or more condescending than what @tnones said about Brie? Do you think my comment was out of proportion or very different in tone to what he said? He dismissed Brie's words as "typical feminist schtick" when she was relating her own feelings and talking about video games, and when she clearly has mountains more experience in the industry than @tnones. Do you think that was fair and not shitty, what @tnones said?
    - mercer 10y ago
      For my part, I'd agree with you. But I also have to admit that my tolerance for 'typical feminist schtick' is much lower than my tolerance for those who question it. I'm fully aware that this is not fair, and I'm trying to compensate, but that's how it is for me right now. It's much harder to challenge something than to (somewhat callously) reject it, and that sucks.
    - saint_fiasco 10y ago
      I think your comment was a little more condescending because the other comment invited a response (just from a non-feminist perspective) while your argument pre-emptively dismissed every possible response. I also think it was less accurate because I believe the feminism angle is a red herring. Like, suppose I complained that videogames are rarely marketed to poor people like me who can't afford modern hardware (when was ever "terrible graphics" and "runs on old consoles" a selling point for a mainstream game?) and then postulated some discrimination by elites against poor people, or maybe that they live in a bubble and are out of touch with the tastes of the poorer masses. One could reasonably answer that I'm missing the point, the industry is perfectly aware of my situation and just doesn't care because I am not profitable to them. Also maybe I should support small indie game studios instead of complaining that AAA games are not being made with me in mind. Just replace poor with women and we have a similar situation. Notice how the actions of the author (working as a game designer) actually do serve to improve the situation and it's only her discourse that is, in my opinion, holding us back as gamers. So that's why some people don't have a lot of patience for the "typical feminist schtick" (though I think this feminist is sincere and not a schtick)
      - dahart 10y ago
        > I also think it was less accurate because I believe the feminism angle is a red herring. How does that reflect on me? I didn't bring up feminism, @tnones did. > Like, suppose I complained that videogames are rarely marketed to poor people ... maybe I should support small indie game studios instead of complaining I don't understand where you're going with this. There is a class bias in the video games market, as with more or less our entire economy. That is probably much better documented than the sexism bias. But games cost money to make and money to buy, and they're a luxury entertainment product, so I'm not sure what there is to do about it, not do I see how that changes anything regarding cultural sexism. > it's only her discourse that is, in my opinion, holding us back as gamers. What did she say that is holding you back? How is it holding you back or working against gamers? Did we read the same article? She's trying to appeal to more gamers, not fewer, she's trying to help people who don't current like games start to like them and see games the way gamers see games... I'm confused.
  - dota 10y ago
    I find the entire quoted line to be unnecessary. The initial question "Does this article scare you?" doesn't serve a purpose, it's just filler. I wouldn't expect the other person to really respond to such a question, nor do I think the conversation should be or is trying to be centered on the question and its possible answer. The post would have been better off not being framed by that question and instead just dive right into the actual arguments.

If you took a less condescending tone your argument might be more persuasive with a wider audience.

by 1_2__3 10y ago

If you took a less condescending tone your argument might be more persuasive with a wider audience.

Sorry about that, I sometimes do get condescending when I feel strongly and am pretty certain that I'm right. It is a problem, and I do want to learn how to make a strong point and not be condescending. Do you feel like my language was more condescending than the comment I replied to? I reacted to what I felt was more or less outright sexist language. "There is nothing to support the author's typical feminist schtick of using diversity as a shorthand for blaming white men for the problems observed." I realize I may be wrong, but I have to admit that I felt like my language, while a little more personal, was more measured and less condescending than that.

saint_fiasco 10y ago
"Does that comment scare you? You sound very defensive. I'm sorry to inform you that we do have a discourse problem that is well documented, and you have identified yourself as part of the problem." That was your comment. I changed a couple of words so it would look like it was directed at you. Calling people defensive is very condescending and shitty, because it leaves people in a position where they have to choose between responding (and "proving you right", since they are now more "defensive") or leaving the conversation (and letting you "win" the argument by default).
- dahart 10y ago
  Yes, agreed, I was condescending, and I will do better next time. To be honest, I've learned a lot about how to post civilly over the years on HN, and I still make mistakes. My post above is not an example of my best work. ;) But - answer me honestly - do you think what I said is less accurate or more condescending than what @tnones said about Brie? Do you think my comment was out of proportion or very different in tone to what he said? He dismissed Brie's words as "typical feminist schtick" when she was relating her own feelings and talking about video games, and when she clearly has mountains more experience in the industry than @tnones. Do you think that was fair and not shitty, what @tnones said?
  - mercer 10y ago
    For my part, I'd agree with you. But I also have to admit that my tolerance for 'typical feminist schtick' is much lower than my tolerance for those who question it. I'm fully aware that this is not fair, and I'm trying to compensate, but that's how it is for me right now. It's much harder to challenge something than to (somewhat callously) reject it, and that sucks.
  - saint_fiasco 10y ago
    I think your comment was a little more condescending because the other comment invited a response (just from a non-feminist perspective) while your argument pre-emptively dismissed every possible response. I also think it was less accurate because I believe the feminism angle is a red herring. Like, suppose I complained that videogames are rarely marketed to poor people like me who can't afford modern hardware (when was ever "terrible graphics" and "runs on old consoles" a selling point for a mainstream game?) and then postulated some discrimination by elites against poor people, or maybe that they live in a bubble and are out of touch with the tastes of the poorer masses. One could reasonably answer that I'm missing the point, the industry is perfectly aware of my situation and just doesn't care because I am not profitable to them. Also maybe I should support small indie game studios instead of complaining that AAA games are not being made with me in mind. Just replace poor with women and we have a similar situation. Notice how the actions of the author (working as a game designer) actually do serve to improve the situation and it's only her discourse that is, in my opinion, holding us back as gamers. So that's why some people don't have a lot of patience for the "typical feminist schtick" (though I think this feminist is sincere and not a schtick)
    - dahart 10y ago
      > I also think it was less accurate because I believe the feminism angle is a red herring. How does that reflect on me? I didn't bring up feminism, @tnones did. > Like, suppose I complained that videogames are rarely marketed to poor people ... maybe I should support small indie game studios instead of complaining I don't understand where you're going with this. There is a class bias in the video games market, as with more or less our entire economy. That is probably much better documented than the sexism bias. But games cost money to make and money to buy, and they're a luxury entertainment product, so I'm not sure what there is to do about it, not do I see how that changes anything regarding cultural sexism. > it's only her discourse that is, in my opinion, holding us back as gamers. What did she say that is holding you back? How is it holding you back or working against gamers? Did we read the same article? She's trying to appeal to more gamers, not fewer, she's trying to help people who don't current like games start to like them and see games the way gamers see games... I'm confused.
- dota 10y ago
  I find the entire quoted line to be unnecessary. The initial question "Does this article scare you?" doesn't serve a purpose, it's just filler. I wouldn't expect the other person to really respond to such a question, nor do I think the conversation should be or is trying to be centered on the question and its possible answer. The post would have been better off not being framed by that question and instead just dive right into the actual arguments.