22 ms·

MacBook Pro is a lie

151 points by ktamiola 10y ago

mark-r 10y ago
I wonder if Apple has realized that this is their New Coke moment? [Yes, I realize 3/4 of the audience here is too young to remember: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke ]
feedjoelpie 10y ago
With that new Windows Subsystem for Linux feature, I'm honestly starting to consider a post-Mac future for my dev work. I'm sure there are a bunch of things about Windows 10 that will annoy me, but the value proposition of Mac is starting to disappear as Microsoft does better and Apple does worse. If Apple didn't tie iOS dev to its own desktop OS, I might be taking Windows for a spin right now.
- deleted 10y ago
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- pmarreck 10y ago
  I recommend just keeping your dev environment in a VirtualBox or VMWare VM that is mobile between physical machines and OS'es. That way you at least get some insurance, AND you get snapshotting and easy backups.
  - WayneBro 10y ago
    Gee, I wish I could run the Mac OS in a VM though. Too bad Apple won't let me do that unless I'm running it on their overpriced, under-powered hardware with the one supported configuration: running the Mac OS as the host OS. (Sorry, I won't call it "macOS" anymore because my marketing services don't come free - I'll continue to refer to it as "the Mac OS" since it's the OS that you can only run on a Mac.) Windows has a better business model for everybody. You can run it anywhere you want without restriction. It's also a vastly superior OS both technically and with regards to UX for Pro and Business users. For those that enjoy UNIX - Apple is still shipping 10 year old GNU utils with the Mac OS and meanwhile, Windows now comes with Ubuntu...and it's fucking awesome!
    - pmarreck 10y ago
      > Too bad Apple won't let me do that unless I'm running it on their overpriced, under-powered hardware with the one supported configuration: running the Mac OS as the host OS. Somewhat agree: If Apple considers iOS the current "cash cow", then they should just open-source "macOS" and thereby expand its potential userbase. They could even charge to "certify" certain hardware or VM configs for it, while leaving the rest of the troubleshooting on uncertified hardware to the masses. > You can run it anywhere you want without restriction. Hahahaha no. I can copy my entire MacOS install/drive to literally any other Mac, or copy it to an external drive and hook it up to ANY Mac, and it boots just fine off it. It doesn't force me to re-validate, it doesn't force me to call Apple, it essentially doesn't assume I'm guilty until proven innocent. You absolutely positively cannot do this with Windows, which makes moving installs (such as to new PC's) ridiculously painful (to any experienced Mac user such as myself). And having to revalidate every time you upgrade your own hardware? LOL. > It's also a vastly superior OS both technically OK now you're literally smoking crack. The OS with the most security holes, by far, in history, is "vastly superior." The OS with such incredible UX oversights as completely removing the ability to shut down from the UI if you enable Fast Boot mode (which is really just a renamed "hibernate"), is superior for Pro users? That's just my most recent encounter of hundreds. LOLOLOL. (I use a Windows machine for gaming. Because that's all it's good for- it's too fucking naggy to tolerate if I want to get any actual work done. And forced reboots without saving the entire state of the apps you're running are fucking stupid... at least MacOS has a facility to save the entire state of a running application if there is EVER a need to involuntarily reboot... Which there almost never is.) > For those that enjoy UNIX - Apple is still shipping 10 year old GNU utils with the Mac OS Apparently you don't use a Mac at all for development or you'd know this: Everyone who's anyone who enjoys UNIX dev on MacOS has long since moved on to Homebrew http://brew.sh/ http://brew.sh/ which puts all those latest utils into userspace.
- camwest 10y ago
  If you can try it then you should. It was a good reality check for me. I elaborated a little more here https://mobile.twitter.com/camwest/status/793236560250494976 https://mobile.twitter.com/camwest/status/793236560250494976
- mercer 10y ago
  I'm close to making a similar decision. But then I think about not having the convenience of Time Machine (and seamlessly moving to a new laptop), apps like OmniFocus, the quality of the trackpad, the 'just-works' sleep mode and a bunch of other things, and much as I hate to admit it I still end up at the MacBook Pro line...
baldfat 10y ago
I am still surprised that we have people acting surprised by Apple. Weren't people says the same thing: 1. Three years ago before they had finally released the over due Mac Pro? 2. Final Cut Pro X? 3. After iPod and iPhone took over Apple's products?
- mercer 10y ago
  When my ex and I finally broke up I wasn't surprised in the least. I was very sad though.
wineisfine 10y ago
Are the developers at Cupertino themselves not fed up with this? Working on 2013 Mac Pro's or perhaps, they're all on hackintoshes.
oldmanjay 10y ago
What is it that makes people thinking whining endlessly about Apple is interesting?
bryanlarsen 10y ago
It's interesting what a difference a name makes. If they had called it the "MacBook Air Pro", there would be far fewer complaints.
- deleted 10y ago
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- provemewrong 10y ago
  Apple MacBook Air Pro with Retina Display. Rolls of the tongue nicely!
  - Veen 10y ago
    Rolls of mine more easily than the official name: "MacBook Pro 13-inch, Two Thunderbolt 3 Ports"
    - rhinoceraptor 10y ago
      I prefer "MBP13-2TB3".
- simonswords82 10y ago
  True that, I'm actually upgrading from a Macbook Air and have none of the issues that my fellow HNers are shouting about.
- tomtheelder 10y ago
  Sort of. What people are upset about is that there is no longer a real "Pro" option. If it had become the "Macbook Air Pro," that would complaint would still be valid. The arguments would be framed differently ("why did Apple kill the Pro line" instead of "this Macbook isn't really a Pro"), but the underlying issue would still be there.
- tomtheelder 10y ago
  Sort of. What people are upset about is that there is no longer a real "Pro" option. If it had become the "Macbook Air Pro," that would complaint would still be valid. The arguments would be framed differently ("why did Apple kill the Pro line" instead of "this Macbook isn't really a Pro"), but the underlying issue would still be there.
kstenerud 10y ago
I'm glad glad glad the magsafe connector is gone. Every single one I've had has gone flaky at the magnetic connector, such that you have to fiddle with it to get just the right alignment for it to charge.
- tcfunk 10y ago
  Funny how different two people's experiences can be. The magsafe is one of my favorite parts of my macbook (hardware-wise), and I've never had an issue with them connecting correctly.
  - XaspR8d 10y ago
    Yeah the magnetic bit is the one part that does survive for me. Don't get me wrong, the cords are shit and constantly frayed, detached, or overheated on me, but I sure miss MagSafe now that I've left Apple products.
    - tsaprailis 10y ago
      If I may ask which laptop do you currently use?
    - pmarreck 10y ago
      Well, if you have a USB-C port that charges your device, this does exist, although some reviews say the magnet is currently weaker than the MagSafe's was: https://smile.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromebook-replacement/dp/B01CQTK6GU/ https://smile.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromeb...
  - masklinn 10y ago
    I guess I'm the middle ground in that it's never flaked on me but I've never needed the magnetic lock either. The one thing I'll miss is you don't really need to aim a magsafe connector, just bring it around the slot and it'll jump in. Not a huge gain though, and probably offset by the ability to plug power on the right side, not have to snake around to the left.
- 10y ago
TurboHaskal 10y ago
Semantics, duh. I personally love the latest MacBooks (Pro 2016 and 12"), they are beautiful and the most Apple-like computers they have released in years. I say that as an owner of a bunch of Thinkpads. It's not that I favor form over function, but I kind of like Apple being Apple.
- mercer 10y ago
  They are pretty, aren't they? What makes you feel they are the most Apple-like in years? My research into alternatives made me think the Thinkpads are probably the best option. But I just can't buy them because they're so ugly (to me). I feel really silly about that but, dammit, if there's one object where I want it to be pretty as well as functional, it's the laptop I stare at most of my day...
kriro 10y ago
I understand all the criticism and have held off on pre ordering one myself (still shopping for a good Linux laptop with solid battery and resolution+light weight) but some of the comments seem a bit ridiculous to me. 16 GB of ram as the bare minimum for web development...come on now. Is there anything obvious I'm missing? That's even enough to run a couple of VMs with full web stacks and some testbrowsers + git and whatever editor you use
- sealthedeal 10y ago
  I thought the same thing. What kind of "web development" was that user doing? 16GB of ram seems more than enough.
- deleted 10y ago
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- nextos 10y ago
  I can see why people prefer more RAM, but I also agree for regular development it might not be needed. Overall, I find it sad Apple is ignoring the professional market. Even if it only brings a small portion of their sales, I think it's bad from a strategic point of view. Developers are those who made their ecosystem so nice. Alienating them is not smart. At the same time, their design decisions have been copied by Lenovo, in a bad way. So ThinkPads are a bit different from what they used to be, and we are left with few good options.
- mrweasel 10y ago
  I understand the complaint about the memory restriction, when it's coming from video editors, but for developers 16GB is fine. Web development on even 8GB isn't an issue, it's fine. The only issue I have with the new MacBook Pro, from a personal perspective is the touch bar, it seems pretty useless. Mostly my problem is that I can't opt to not get the touch bar on larger models, so I have no means of indicating to Apple that I don't need it, or want it. Let's say it turns out the the touch bar is just a gimmick, and not of any actual use to anyone. Would Apple ever admit to that? I doubt it, so now we're stuck with it. Also perhaps price. The MacBook Pro is somewhat overpriced.
marricks 10y ago
This is just a bit mysterifying as there review of the MacBook pro sans touch said it was perfectly capable for final cut pro, Photoshop, etc. They used the CPUs in the correct thermal envelope for the laptop, except maybe the sans touch model which they said was an air replacement. The real use case for 16 GB + of ram is video editing or tons of memory hungry VMs. Edge cases. Not only that but people begrudge them for not waiting for Canonlake* with LPDDR4, but they'd miss the holidays and have to launch in the middle of the year! Intel is continually dropping the ball with deadlines. Is it that hard to wait for a refresh which will likely have 32 GB ram next year? These laptops seem more than capable for most professionals, The Verge just seems to be giving in to the perennial fanboy hate whenever Apple does something new...
- izacus 10y ago
  > The real use case for 16 GB + of ram is video editing or tons of memory hungry VMs. Or you know... running modern Electron apps. New Slack update burns over 1GB of RAM regularly and it's not the only thing running on the machine. 16GB might have been enough for year, but with current crazy wasting of memory for simple apps it's not that spacious anymore.
  - supahfly_remix 10y ago
    > Slack update burns over 1GB of RAM regularly Is this right? This is a glorified chat client! Why so much?
    - skykooler 10y ago
      Because it sits on top of a web browser, and keeps all chats, images, gifs etc in memory across all channels instead of just loading those for the current channel.
    - RodgerTheGreat 10y ago
      The "native" app is a Chromium wrapper of essentially the webapp, so it shouldn't be surprising that the performance profile is similar to that of running another web browser. Cost-effective for the developers, less than efficient for end-users. This is the same tradeoff we've collectively chosen for many things in the "rich webapp" space.
ungzd 10y ago
I wish these "tech journalists" copying nagging about "some lake" and "16 Gb" from each other again and again to use "comparable Windows alternatives" til the end of their lives. Even if these alternatives are hottest tablets with detachable keyboard and mouse and not Lenovo SuperfishBook Pro.
elcct 10y ago
They should change its name to MacBook Leisure. It should be very fine piece to watch videos on the go and touch bar could be used to skip boring parts.
- nashashmi 10y ago
  It does make you wonder if an actual pro book will ever be released.
ktamiola 10y ago
Lack of ports, or stripping of aforementioned is not the point here. It is Apple's inconsistency, which is the most worrying thing here.
- jpalomaki 10y ago
  Recent iPads and iPhones should have gone the USB-C route.
no1youknowz 10y ago
As a developer, I really don't see a MacBook Pro any more. They should have really called it a MacBook Air Pro. Also being a MBPr 2012 owner. When thinking about an upgrade, I was wanting MORE of the same but BETTER specifications. This is what I am seeing, when I look at the MBP 2016. - No magsafe - No glowing apple logo - No startup chime - No SD card slot - No HDMI - No USB 2/3 ports - No 32GB / DDR4 ram - No Nvidia graphic card - Reduced battery - Reduced Keyboard travel There is nothing that shows "Apple innovation" in this Macbook Pro 2016. As such, no upgrade from me. I am more than happy to wait another 18 months for the next refresh. I really hope Apple takes on board why developers really loved the previous MBP line.
- Exuma 10y ago
  Also............ no vim key. Kill me
  - Veen 10y ago
    The lower tier model does have an escape key. For Touch Bar machines, there will be an escape "key" on the touch bar, which I don't think will be much more inconvenient than reaching for the actual escape key. Lots of Vim users map that key to something else anyway — it's not well placed for such a commonly used key.
  - striking 10y ago
    Ctrl-[ is a better Escape, though. (and is enabled by default in Vim, in your terminal, and Vim modes in other editors.) You don't even have to lift your fingers off the home row.
    - Matthias247 10y ago
      However it's a console escape key, which means it doesn't work in graphical applications (VS Code, Atom, IDEs, ...). You might also want vim mode there. Or want easy access to escape for other reasons (intellisense can sometimes be annoying, ...).
MrScruff 10y ago
Skipping the whole pro-vs-not-pro debate entirely, I never understand the whole 'pros are smart with their money and Mac is poor bang for buck' argument. If a pro is someone who earns their living through using a computer, what's more important? Saving a few hundred dollars on a laptop? Or purchasing the machine that you feel allows you to work the most efficiently?
- Veen 10y ago
  > Saving a few hundred dollars on a laptop? Or purchasing the machine that you feel allows you to work the most efficiently? It's a fair point, but there's a limit. Pro's will pay over the odds for efficiency and ruggedness, but the new pricing has an air of exploitation. At some point, the prices become unjustifiable.
  - MrScruff 10y ago
    > At some point, the prices become unjustifiable. In what sense though? Because the premium they're charging doesn't feel fair? That sounds odd to me. Pros have a history of paying ridiculous sums to work on exotic hardware like SGI's because it was the best tool for the job. A few hundred doesn't seem like that big a deal.
    - mercer 10y ago
      I'm afraid Apple is thinking exactly this way. As a 'Pro customer' I know that I can and probably will end up paying more for 'less' eventually and get one of the new MacBook Pros. But for the first time in my life as an Apple user (just short of 10 years, I think), for the very first time I feel the price is only barely justifiable and I actively looked into alternatives. I suppose the fact that I couldn't find an alternative that was good enough validates Apple's current offering and pricing. But it's a solid chunk of goodwill gone, and the moment I find an alternative that is good enough, they'll lose at least one well-paying customer. And even then it's probably not a problem for them. They make so much on their mobile devices that the Pro can be an afterthought.
    - Veen 10y ago
Theodores 10y ago
The 16Gb RAM 'let's throw the toys out of the pram' problem has not been handled very well. The Skylake CPUs I have seen all seem to be limited to 16Gb max RAM. Allegedly there are desktop variants that take more. The Skylake CPUs also have fewer cores in them than one might expect, e.g. two cores (with hyperthreading so '4') in a i7 CPU, for years one has expected four cores (with HT, so '8') in anything branded 'i7'. There is NVMe for the SSD and I am sure the Apple folks have some nifty driver to swap to disk a lot quicker than in the olden days. So main memory is a bit more like 'cache' in that there is no need to be that hung up on the specifics. If your main program can reside in 16Gb RAM with operating system then all is good. Throwing more memory at the CPU is not how it works on Skylake. Apple could have avoided the latest CPUs but imagine the outrage of 'old hardware' The new CPUs are low power, you get all day battery. I also wonder whether those people complaining about a lack of RAM are after selling website clicks or doing real work.
- strictnein 10y ago
  Really not sure where you're getting your info. The Skylake series is not limited to two cores and can handle more than 16GB. With DDR3 it's 32GB, with DDR4 it's 64GB. This is true of their mobile and desktop parts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_(microarchitecture)#List_of_Skylake_processors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_(microarchitecture)#Li... Edit: Maybe you're just confusing Skylake and Kaby Lake?
votr 10y ago
If Dell releases an XPS 15 in Q1 with Kaby Lake, discrete graphics, and 32GB ram, I'm in.
- romanovcode 10y ago
  And hopefully trackpad that is just as good.
GBKS 10y ago
Really don't understand this. Why can't those demanding Pro people just get iMacs. It's cheaper and supports 32GB of RAM. Of course, it's stationary, but pretty sure those specific professionals are mostly stationary anyways because they use multiple monitors. This while freak-out about the MBPs ist just silly.
- pmarreck 10y ago
  One of the benefits of being a developer is being able to develop from anywhere. If you're unable to take advantage of this, you're seriously missing out on one of the best perks IMHO.
- satysin 10y ago
  > Of course, it's stationary You answered your own question. I need a machine that is portable that I can hook up to multiple monitors at home and at work, and that I can use on the go for meetings, customer visits, etc. How the hell will an iMac help me there?
  - GBKS 10y ago
    But that's a matter of priority then, isn't it? If portability is important then you have to sacrifice some power. I'm curious, what do you run on your computer to max out a brand-new MBP with 16GB of Ram? I currently do design and dev work on a 3 year old MBP with 8GB Ram. This includes running VMs for I.E. and back-ends for various projects, using Xcode to build apps, editing Sketch files with 50+ screens, photo editing in Photoshop and motion graphics in AfterEffects. Naturally I don't everything at once, but even with a combo of some of them, everything runs just fine. So this makes me genuinely curious what people do that these brand-new machines can't handle. And are those demands really the majority use case? If not, then there is an argument for having different machines for the demanding work loads and maybe a smaller laptop or even iPad for meetings. What are your thoughts?
- sumoboy 10y ago
  That's what apple wants you to do, buy a macbook and iMac. Apple had the competitive laptop edge for a long time but now they've lost it to dell, samsung, and hp.
rufius 10y ago
This is a sincere question: what do people need with 32 GB of RAM on a dev laptop? I work on an MBA 11" with 8GB and I'm using Parallels to run Visual Studio 2015 for a work related project (100k+ C#/C++ codebase). Other than that work I do some Haskell and C++ work locally. It chugs along just fine and I don't feel like I'm hurting with it compared to compiling on my dev box at work. Are people just spinning up a lot of VMs? I've got a beefy box at work for when I need to do heavy lifting because I value battery life on the laptop over doing it locally. Additionally, I like the static context - work on code at work ok beefy workstation then go home and remote in if I still have more to do. TL;DR: what are people's use cases for 32gb on a laptop if you're a developer? Why not remote into big box?
- sigzero 10y ago
  Every time I've seen someone ask for more RAM it has been because they are spinning up multiple VMs.
  - monkmartinez 10y ago
    Or like 12 chrome tabs....
  - rufius 10y ago
    Ya - that was my assumption though I can't envision spinning up more than one a laptop at a time. That said, I don't do client work so my context is relatively static.
- strictnein 10y ago
  Yes, VMs, used in a wide variety of ways. And being reliant on connectivity to a "big box" to simply get your work done is suboptimal. Also, how big of box do you need when you've got hundreds if not thousands of devs? Much easier (and cheaper, since there's no upkeep) to throw another 16GB of memory inside every developer's system.
  - rufius 10y ago
    Well when I say big box, I mean big box per dev but I get your point. The message I'm getting from folks is that if you do contract/client work, you want everything local for many reasons. In my case, I work for a Large Software Company so my scenario is more constrained.
gog 10y ago
There is no magsafe to usb-c adapter which makes the power adapter coming from my Apple Thunderbolt display unusable. - have to buy a new power adapter so I don't have to carry one to work and I am still left with an unused wire appendix from the display - have to buy a Thunderbolt to USB-C adapter for the display - have to buy a new cable to connect iphone or USB stick, HDD, etc. to the laptop - have to pay the premium for the touch bar although most of the time I use the machine it is closed and connected to my display and keyboard - I can not connect the headphones from iphone 7 because of the missing lightning connector Hopefully they will realize how broken this is now for existing users and fix some of this nonsense next year.
- reustle 10y ago
  > have to pay the premium for the touch bar although most of the time I use the machine it is closed and connected to my display and keyboard Well at least this one is optional. I'm hoping more people opt for the function-key model, so they actually release one with 4 usb-c ports instead of 2. Why did they do that, anyway?
  - gog 10y ago
    Unfortunately it is not optional if you also want the faster CPU.
gizmodo59 10y ago
Surface (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book/overview#surfaceconfiguration https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book...): 128GB/Intel® Core™ i5-8GB- $1,499 With tax the price comes to 1650. (I do realize its touch screen) Is M$FT trying the Apple's path?
iambrillant 10y ago
Whoa, what happened to the verge? Just scrolling through that page and my browser has downloaded ~100MB!
- mcjiggerlog 10y ago
  Damn, you weren't kidding - what the hell?
throw2016 10y ago
I think Apple mostly choose excellent components to build their devices, be it the screens, ssds or cameras. For a buyer getting an iPhone or Macbook is usually the best way to get hold of a well put together and high quality device. Sure you can get the same quality in other devices but it takes research and most devices of equivalent quality are usually as expensive as Apple devices and sometimes even more. The Dell XPS, Surface book or HP Spectre are not cheap or without issues. Even equivalently configured Asus Zenbooks with i5 and not core-m are not cheap. For instance the previous generation 13 retinas were the only laptops with 28W i5 SKUs. The rest of the i5 ultrabooks in the Windows ecosystem were the standard 15W SKUs, so with the Macbook 13 Retina you got slightly better performance and Iris graphics. The current dissappointment is valid as people rightly expect far more from Apple than boring incremental updates. The magsafe ommission is head scratching and 1299 to 1499 is a huge jump. I think people are getting disenchanted with paying for 'let's make things thin' brand of engineering that adds little to no value to end users.
chrisfarms 10y ago
As surprised as I am to say this; I think Google could steal a large chunk of the developer market overnight with some slight changes to Chrome OS. I needed an emergency machine last week (My 2011 Pro finally died), and I opt'd for a £200 Chromebook (EDGAR), thinking all I need is a browser and a terminal right this second and I'd worry about what Apple is doing later. A solid Linux laptop with working sleep, working wifi, great battery life. Tad underpowered but hey it's £200. I'm _really_ impressed. If Google relaxed the constraints a little on the OS, or supported a Crouton-like workflow for containers without having to stick it in dev-mode, they could make A LOT of developers very happy.
- mi100hael 10y ago
  I can't recommend Dell's Developer Edition laptops enough. I switched from a MacBook Pro about 6 months ago and haven't run into any of the usual obnoxious Linux-on-a-laptop headaches like sleep or wifi. http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-laptop http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-lapt...
  - mercer 10y ago
    I'm leaning toward the XPS but I keep hearing that the trackpad is pretty shitty. Can you confirm/deny that?
    - mi100hael 10y ago
      It's not as good as the force trackpad on the current MBP, but it's not bad, either. My only real gripe is that the physical click is a little heavy & loud. I'd put it in the same ballpark with prior generations of MBPs that physically clicked. You can always go play with one at a Micro Center or other box store.
- eloisant 10y ago
  Don't you get a real, regular Linux distribution when using Crouton?
S_A_P 10y ago
This macbook pro is incompatible with my current set up and will not be purchased, as I had intended to prior to the launch event. I have 4 mag safe power supplies(I travel with one and I keep one at my desk) it was bad enough when you switched from mag safe one to mag safe 2. I use my Macbook pro to run logic and record and mix audio. I have an internal 256gb mini SD card that stores my samples. I will need dongles for my external ssds, my 2000 dollar UAD apollo 8 and several other USB synthesizers and drum machines. I have 8 years of logic projects that Im not intereted in converting to some other format. I dont think that Apple could have fucked over anyone who makes music much harder. Oh, and that touch strip? too small for anything but emoticons. I went from being semi excited about this macbook to realizing just how mid grade this thing really is. If the next update doesnt put the features I need back in place, this will be the last of my apple purchases. I've owned a mac pro, 4 macbook pros, every iphone save for the 3g. I like that you make them out of nice materials and strive for better. But you are now just making luxury laptops for consumers, not pros.
i_don_t_know 10y ago
A few days ago there was an article that some Thunderbolt devices don't work with the new machines. A little disconcerting but since I don't have any I don't care. But I do care about my USB-A devices. I don't mind using an adapter because I only need it at home on my desk. However the description of the Apple USB-C to USB-A adapter says it doesn't work with some devices. Great. Now what? [I'm also a little ticked off that they don't include an adapter in the box. Most people will have legacy USB-A devices and should need one.] CORRECTION: They don't say anything when I add the adapter to one of the new MacBook Pros during the purchase process. But they do include the caveat when I add the adapter to the 12" MacBook which I've also been looking at (sorry, German page): " Mit dem USB-C-auf-USB-Adapter kannst du dein MacBook mit USB-C-Anschluss an viele USB-Zubehörgeräte anschließen, z. B. an deine Kamera, einen Flash-Drive oder an ein Lightning auf USB-Kabel, um iPhone, iPad oder iPod aufzuladen und zu synchronisieren.* *Einige USB-Zubehörgeräte werden nicht unterstützt. " The last sentence reads: Some USB accessories are not supported.
- matthewmacleod 10y ago
  However the description of the Apple USB-C to USB-A adapter says it doesn't work with some devices. I'd be genuinely surprised by that though. Isn't it just a passive adapter?
  - i_don_t_know 10y ago
    Correction: They don't say anything when I add the adapter to one of the new MacBook Pros during the purchase process. But they do include the caveat when I add the adapter to the 12" MacBook which I've also been looking at (sorry, German page): " Mit dem USB-C-auf-USB-Adapter kannst du dein MacBook mit USB-C-Anschluss an viele USB-Zubehörgeräte anschließen, z. B. an deine Kamera, einen Flash-Drive oder an ein Lightning auf USB-Kabel, um iPhone, iPad oder iPod aufzuladen und zu synchronisieren.* *Einige USB-Zubehörgeräte werden nicht unterstützt. " The last sentence reads: Some USB accessories are not supported.
wilsynet 10y ago
The worst part of the new MacBook Pro is the crappy keyboard. It's not unusable; it's just such a chore to use. Thank you Apple for making a computer for people who don't need to type very much.
audunw 10y ago
More of this? Does he really contribute anything new to this discussion? My impression is that the MBP 2016 is simply released at an unfortunate timing. If you look at the MacRumors buyers guide, you can see that the release schedule for the MBP has historically been less then a year. If they can get back to that schedule, they should be able to release a MBP with the specs people are nagging about around the time when a suitable Intel Processor with LPDDR4 is available. As for other common complaints. - Ergonomics: When has Apple ever had an ergonomic keyboard? If you're working long stretches, connect a proper keyboard and external display for gods sake - GPU: Apple has never pushed the boundaries there. If this hasn't been an issue for pro users before, I'm not sure it should be an issue now. - USB-C only: Typical Apple. Could pay of in a few years though. A world where everything is USB-C is definitely worth pushing for, and it's good that Apple sets an example there. In the meantime I think the 3rd party dongles look quite nice and very convenient. You could potentially have less cable mess by just getting a dongle with just the right ports for you: http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/01/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-adapters-hubs-2016-mbp/ http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/01/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-adap... - Lack of Magsafe: Sucks, but OK in the context of pushing for a industry-standard charger for everything. Third party cables can pick up this use-case just fine. So I think the heart of the matter is that Apple has chosen to optimize the power envelope of the Pro line, which has caused them to have to postpone upgrade of processor/RAM. This might seem stupid, but I think it's the right choice in the long term. I think the way things are going, pro users will offload more work to servers/cloud and external GPUs making the niche for a really powerful laptop too small. I also think Apple is making the right reason in focusing more on SSD performance than RAM size. SSD is becoming the new RAM, and RAM is becoming the new cache. RAM is going to be more tightly bonded to the CPU, even in high performance applications. Especially once Intel 3D-Xpoint/Octane hits the market. So what we're seeing is a generation shift in the tech, and Apple is simply skating to where the puck is going.
- AlexandrB 10y ago
  > - Ergonomics: When has Apple ever had an ergonomic keyboard? If you're working long stretches, connect a proper keyboard and external display for gods sake The old MacBook Pro keyboards were actually really good. Almost as good as the old (~2005) Thinkpad keyboards and definitely good enough for extended typing. While the ergonomics are obviously suboptimal when screen and keyboard are stuck together at least typing on the keys was pleasant and accurate.
cobralibre 10y ago
Many people were clinging on to their aging MacBook Pros in the vain hope of seeing a major spec and performance upgrade that simply didn’t materialize, and that's been frustrating. This statement is worth pausing on. Many users with "pro" needs (developers, video editors, photographers, etc.) replace their computers on a 3-4 year cycle. It's reasonable to expect significant enhancements related to those pro needs at the end of that cycle. Furthermore — and this is crucial — any new computer has to serve those pro needs for the next 3-4 years.
- mercer 10y ago
  I'm one of those people. Thankfully I can still do my work on my MacBook Air for a while yet, but my original plan was to buy a MacBook Pro last year. Now I'm just hoping I can comfortably continue using my MBA and pray that next year they either lower the prices, do something fancy to the specs, or, ideally, release a proper MacBook Pro (fat chance...). Worst case scenario I'll just buy the Pro they release next year, though. They probably know that there are many like me who would still go for the Pro even in its current incarnation, so I'm not keeping my hopes up that next year will be anything but an incremental update to the current, shitty Pros.
jsjohnst 10y ago
I shouldn't be surprised I guess, but I'm tired of seeing tech press make such ignorant articles re: tech. > this year's Kaby Lake You mean the processor which was announced two months before the MBP? The one that isn't available in a mobile processor with quad cores? > lack of 32gb RAM option You mean the fact that Intel doesn't support LPDDR4 on Skylake (or even Kaby Lake until ~2018) mobile processors? So was Apple supposed to just switch to desktop class processors in their unrealistically thin laptops? Have you used a laptop with it, they typically run extraordinarily hot and have terrible battery life, even with laptops with twice the battery. The real story that the new MacBook Pros reveal is that Intel is REALLY dropping the ball. If Apple thought they were ready to switch to ARM, my money is on they would've. The fact they didn't indicates to me that despite every effort, they couldn't yet (yet being the opporative word). (Now waiting for the downvotes from the folks who'd rather be cry Apple has lost its way rather than actually think about what could be the reasons. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot to bash Apple for, but the above two aren't them)
- mercer 10y ago
  Just a nitpick, but it's Kaby Lake, not Kalby Lake. That is all.
  - jsjohnst 10y ago
    Thanks! Not sure how I typo'd twice when even A/C doesn't like the wrong spelling. (Edit: looking back on my posts here and elsewhere, seems I misspelled it more often than not, ugh)
- RotsiserMho 10y ago
  I'm pretty sure the mobile CPUs support at least 64GB of DDR3. So the memory subsystem would be desktop class but they could use the same mobile CPUs. Seems to me that might have been an option if they didn't also shrink the battery.
  - jsjohnst 10y ago
    Actually, they don't. Per the Intel data sheet [0], the Skylake mobile processors don't even support DDR3, they support DDR3L (lower power variant of DDR3), LPDDR3 (what the MacBook Pro uses), and DDR4. Here's the max system memory per memory type: DDR3L: 16gb (page 20) DDR4: 32gb (page 21) LPDDR3: 16gb (page 21) So the only way Apple could've supported more than 16gb RAM would've been to support DDR4. [1] I am far from an expert, but I believe DDR4 is only available in an SO-DIMM package [3]. Sure, we would all LOVE Apple to support upgradeable memory again, but that's very likely not going to happen. Just think how much thicker (teh horror!) the laptop would have to be to support that! [2] I also suspect that Apple is using the Y-processor line which only supports LPDDR3 memory (per page 19), so that further negates the ability to use DDR4 memory. Again, this part is unconfirmed, but would make sense. [0] http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/datasheets/6th-gen-core-family-mobile-u-y-processor-lines-datasheet-vol-1.pdf http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/... [1] I'm still curious how Intel claims the processor supports up to 64gb RAM on the short form of the processor specs. I could not find a configuration in the detailed data sheets that allowed 64gb of RAM. [2] (sarcasm intended there, obviously it could be easily thicker and most people wouldn't mind) Edit: [3] Seems I likely am wrong. DDR4 is supported in a "Memory Down" configuration as well. This would've allowed Apple to use DDR4 memory if they used a U-processor line and also used DDR4 memory. From what I am reading online (no official sources, so not linking to more speculation), this would've had a battery impact of up to 20%, thus very likely why Apple didn't do it. More info on "Memory Down" here: http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/ia-system-memory-down-paper.pdf http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/...
blackoil 10y ago
I would love for Dell/HP to seize this moment and announce a completely new line/brand of laptops segmented from current brands to just compete head-on with Macbook. Just 3-4 models <Dellbook> 13, 15 and <Dellbook> Pro 13, 15, match Apple build quality 1-1, make them high price/margin. Up the specs kabylake, 32 GB, support both Windows/Linux. Seems we have some pent up demand for this.
- mercer 10y ago
  If they can get the trackpads to work as well as the Mac's, and offer some kind of Apple Care equivalent that isn't shitty (maybe they already do?), I'd be interested.
EmmEff 10y ago
IMO, the majority of "pros" that have made the most noise about the latest MacBook Pro aren't pros at all.

151 points by ktamiola 10y ago

I wonder if Apple has realized that this is their New Coke moment? [Yes, I realize 3/4 of the audience here is too young to remember: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke ]

feedjoelpie 10y ago

With that new Windows Subsystem for Linux feature, I'm honestly starting to consider a post-Mac future for my dev work. I'm sure there are a bunch of things about Windows 10 that will annoy me, but the value proposition of Mac is starting to disappear as Microsoft does better and Apple does worse. If Apple didn't tie iOS dev to its own desktop OS, I might be taking Windows for a spin right now.

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pmarreck 10y ago
I recommend just keeping your dev environment in a VirtualBox or VMWare VM that is mobile between physical machines and OS'es. That way you at least get some insurance, AND you get snapshotting and easy backups.
- WayneBro 10y ago
  Gee, I wish I could run the Mac OS in a VM though. Too bad Apple won't let me do that unless I'm running it on their overpriced, under-powered hardware with the one supported configuration: running the Mac OS as the host OS. (Sorry, I won't call it "macOS" anymore because my marketing services don't come free - I'll continue to refer to it as "the Mac OS" since it's the OS that you can only run on a Mac.) Windows has a better business model for everybody. You can run it anywhere you want without restriction. It's also a vastly superior OS both technically and with regards to UX for Pro and Business users. For those that enjoy UNIX - Apple is still shipping 10 year old GNU utils with the Mac OS and meanwhile, Windows now comes with Ubuntu...and it's fucking awesome!
  - pmarreck 10y ago
    > Too bad Apple won't let me do that unless I'm running it on their overpriced, under-powered hardware with the one supported configuration: running the Mac OS as the host OS. Somewhat agree: If Apple considers iOS the current "cash cow", then they should just open-source "macOS" and thereby expand its potential userbase. They could even charge to "certify" certain hardware or VM configs for it, while leaving the rest of the troubleshooting on uncertified hardware to the masses. > You can run it anywhere you want without restriction. Hahahaha no. I can copy my entire MacOS install/drive to literally any other Mac, or copy it to an external drive and hook it up to ANY Mac, and it boots just fine off it. It doesn't force me to re-validate, it doesn't force me to call Apple, it essentially doesn't assume I'm guilty until proven innocent. You absolutely positively cannot do this with Windows, which makes moving installs (such as to new PC's) ridiculously painful (to any experienced Mac user such as myself). And having to revalidate every time you upgrade your own hardware? LOL. > It's also a vastly superior OS both technically OK now you're literally smoking crack. The OS with the most security holes, by far, in history, is "vastly superior." The OS with such incredible UX oversights as completely removing the ability to shut down from the UI if you enable Fast Boot mode (which is really just a renamed "hibernate"), is superior for Pro users? That's just my most recent encounter of hundreds. LOLOLOL. (I use a Windows machine for gaming. Because that's all it's good for- it's too fucking naggy to tolerate if I want to get any actual work done. And forced reboots without saving the entire state of the apps you're running are fucking stupid... at least MacOS has a facility to save the entire state of a running application if there is EVER a need to involuntarily reboot... Which there almost never is.) > For those that enjoy UNIX - Apple is still shipping 10 year old GNU utils with the Mac OS Apparently you don't use a Mac at all for development or you'd know this: Everyone who's anyone who enjoys UNIX dev on MacOS has long since moved on to Homebrew http://brew.sh/ http://brew.sh/ which puts all those latest utils into userspace.
camwest 10y ago
If you can try it then you should. It was a good reality check for me. I elaborated a little more here https://mobile.twitter.com/camwest/status/793236560250494976 https://mobile.twitter.com/camwest/status/793236560250494976
mercer 10y ago
I'm close to making a similar decision. But then I think about not having the convenience of Time Machine (and seamlessly moving to a new laptop), apps like OmniFocus, the quality of the trackpad, the 'just-works' sleep mode and a bunch of other things, and much as I hate to admit it I still end up at the MacBook Pro line...

baldfat 10y ago

I am still surprised that we have people acting surprised by Apple. Weren't people says the same thing: 1. Three years ago before they had finally released the over due Mac Pro? 2. Final Cut Pro X? 3. After iPod and iPhone took over Apple's products?

mercer 10y ago
When my ex and I finally broke up I wasn't surprised in the least. I was very sad though.

wineisfine 10y ago

Are the developers at Cupertino themselves not fed up with this? Working on 2013 Mac Pro's or perhaps, they're all on hackintoshes.

oldmanjay 10y ago

What is it that makes people thinking whining endlessly about Apple is interesting?

bryanlarsen 10y ago

It's interesting what a difference a name makes. If they had called it the "MacBook Air Pro", there would be far fewer complaints.

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provemewrong 10y ago
Apple MacBook Air Pro with Retina Display. Rolls of the tongue nicely!
- Veen 10y ago
  Rolls of mine more easily than the official name: "MacBook Pro 13-inch, Two Thunderbolt 3 Ports"
  - rhinoceraptor 10y ago
    I prefer "MBP13-2TB3".
simonswords82 10y ago
True that, I'm actually upgrading from a Macbook Air and have none of the issues that my fellow HNers are shouting about.
tomtheelder 10y ago
Sort of. What people are upset about is that there is no longer a real "Pro" option. If it had become the "Macbook Air Pro," that would complaint would still be valid. The arguments would be framed differently ("why did Apple kill the Pro line" instead of "this Macbook isn't really a Pro"), but the underlying issue would still be there.
tomtheelder 10y ago
Sort of. What people are upset about is that there is no longer a real "Pro" option. If it had become the "Macbook Air Pro," that would complaint would still be valid. The arguments would be framed differently ("why did Apple kill the Pro line" instead of "this Macbook isn't really a Pro"), but the underlying issue would still be there.

kstenerud 10y ago

I'm glad glad glad the magsafe connector is gone. Every single one I've had has gone flaky at the magnetic connector, such that you have to fiddle with it to get just the right alignment for it to charge.

tcfunk 10y ago
Funny how different two people's experiences can be. The magsafe is one of my favorite parts of my macbook (hardware-wise), and I've never had an issue with them connecting correctly.
- XaspR8d 10y ago
  Yeah the magnetic bit is the one part that does survive for me. Don't get me wrong, the cords are shit and constantly frayed, detached, or overheated on me, but I sure miss MagSafe now that I've left Apple products.
  - tsaprailis 10y ago
    If I may ask which laptop do you currently use?
  - pmarreck 10y ago
    Well, if you have a USB-C port that charges your device, this does exist, although some reviews say the magnet is currently weaker than the MagSafe's was: https://smile.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromebook-replacement/dp/B01CQTK6GU/ https://smile.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromeb...
- masklinn 10y ago
  I guess I'm the middle ground in that it's never flaked on me but I've never needed the magnetic lock either. The one thing I'll miss is you don't really need to aim a magsafe connector, just bring it around the slot and it'll jump in. Not a huge gain though, and probably offset by the ability to plug power on the right side, not have to snake around to the left.
10y ago

TurboHaskal 10y ago

Semantics, duh. I personally love the latest MacBooks (Pro 2016 and 12"), they are beautiful and the most Apple-like computers they have released in years. I say that as an owner of a bunch of Thinkpads. It's not that I favor form over function, but I kind of like Apple being Apple.

mercer 10y ago
They are pretty, aren't they? What makes you feel they are the most Apple-like in years? My research into alternatives made me think the Thinkpads are probably the best option. But I just can't buy them because they're so ugly (to me). I feel really silly about that but, dammit, if there's one object where I want it to be pretty as well as functional, it's the laptop I stare at most of my day...

kriro 10y ago

I understand all the criticism and have held off on pre ordering one myself (still shopping for a good Linux laptop with solid battery and resolution+light weight) but some of the comments seem a bit ridiculous to me. 16 GB of ram as the bare minimum for web development...come on now. Is there anything obvious I'm missing? That's even enough to run a couple of VMs with full web stacks and some testbrowsers + git and whatever editor you use

sealthedeal 10y ago
I thought the same thing. What kind of "web development" was that user doing? 16GB of ram seems more than enough.
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nextos 10y ago
I can see why people prefer more RAM, but I also agree for regular development it might not be needed. Overall, I find it sad Apple is ignoring the professional market. Even if it only brings a small portion of their sales, I think it's bad from a strategic point of view. Developers are those who made their ecosystem so nice. Alienating them is not smart. At the same time, their design decisions have been copied by Lenovo, in a bad way. So ThinkPads are a bit different from what they used to be, and we are left with few good options.
mrweasel 10y ago
I understand the complaint about the memory restriction, when it's coming from video editors, but for developers 16GB is fine. Web development on even 8GB isn't an issue, it's fine. The only issue I have with the new MacBook Pro, from a personal perspective is the touch bar, it seems pretty useless. Mostly my problem is that I can't opt to not get the touch bar on larger models, so I have no means of indicating to Apple that I don't need it, or want it. Let's say it turns out the the touch bar is just a gimmick, and not of any actual use to anyone. Would Apple ever admit to that? I doubt it, so now we're stuck with it. Also perhaps price. The MacBook Pro is somewhat overpriced.

marricks 10y ago

This is just a bit mysterifying as there review of the MacBook pro sans touch said it was perfectly capable for final cut pro, Photoshop, etc. They used the CPUs in the correct thermal envelope for the laptop, except maybe the sans touch model which they said was an air replacement. The real use case for 16 GB + of ram is video editing or tons of memory hungry VMs. Edge cases. Not only that but people begrudge them for not waiting for Canonlake* with LPDDR4, but they'd miss the holidays and have to launch in the middle of the year! Intel is continually dropping the ball with deadlines. Is it that hard to wait for a refresh which will likely have 32 GB ram next year? These laptops seem more than capable for most professionals, The Verge just seems to be giving in to the perennial fanboy hate whenever Apple does something new...

izacus 10y ago
> The real use case for 16 GB + of ram is video editing or tons of memory hungry VMs. Or you know... running modern Electron apps. New Slack update burns over 1GB of RAM regularly and it's not the only thing running on the machine. 16GB might have been enough for year, but with current crazy wasting of memory for simple apps it's not that spacious anymore.
- supahfly_remix 10y ago
  > Slack update burns over 1GB of RAM regularly Is this right? This is a glorified chat client! Why so much?
  - skykooler 10y ago
    Because it sits on top of a web browser, and keeps all chats, images, gifs etc in memory across all channels instead of just loading those for the current channel.
  - RodgerTheGreat 10y ago
    The "native" app is a Chromium wrapper of essentially the webapp, so it shouldn't be surprising that the performance profile is similar to that of running another web browser. Cost-effective for the developers, less than efficient for end-users. This is the same tradeoff we've collectively chosen for many things in the "rich webapp" space.

ungzd 10y ago

I wish these "tech journalists" copying nagging about "some lake" and "16 Gb" from each other again and again to use "comparable Windows alternatives" til the end of their lives. Even if these alternatives are hottest tablets with detachable keyboard and mouse and not Lenovo SuperfishBook Pro.

elcct 10y ago

They should change its name to MacBook Leisure. It should be very fine piece to watch videos on the go and touch bar could be used to skip boring parts.

nashashmi 10y ago
It does make you wonder if an actual pro book will ever be released.

ktamiola 10y ago

Lack of ports, or stripping of aforementioned is not the point here. It is Apple's inconsistency, which is the most worrying thing here.

jpalomaki 10y ago
Recent iPads and iPhones should have gone the USB-C route.

no1youknowz 10y ago

As a developer, I really don't see a MacBook Pro any more. They should have really called it a MacBook Air Pro. Also being a MBPr 2012 owner. When thinking about an upgrade, I was wanting MORE of the same but BETTER specifications. This is what I am seeing, when I look at the MBP 2016. - No magsafe - No glowing apple logo - No startup chime - No SD card slot - No HDMI - No USB 2/3 ports - No 32GB / DDR4 ram - No Nvidia graphic card - Reduced battery - Reduced Keyboard travel There is nothing that shows "Apple innovation" in this Macbook Pro 2016. As such, no upgrade from me. I am more than happy to wait another 18 months for the next refresh. I really hope Apple takes on board why developers really loved the previous MBP line.

Exuma 10y ago
Also............ no vim key. Kill me
- Veen 10y ago
  The lower tier model does have an escape key. For Touch Bar machines, there will be an escape "key" on the touch bar, which I don't think will be much more inconvenient than reaching for the actual escape key. Lots of Vim users map that key to something else anyway — it's not well placed for such a commonly used key.
- striking 10y ago
  Ctrl-[ is a better Escape, though. (and is enabled by default in Vim, in your terminal, and Vim modes in other editors.) You don't even have to lift your fingers off the home row.
  - Matthias247 10y ago
    However it's a console escape key, which means it doesn't work in graphical applications (VS Code, Atom, IDEs, ...). You might also want vim mode there. Or want easy access to escape for other reasons (intellisense can sometimes be annoying, ...).

MrScruff 10y ago

Skipping the whole pro-vs-not-pro debate entirely, I never understand the whole 'pros are smart with their money and Mac is poor bang for buck' argument. If a pro is someone who earns their living through using a computer, what's more important? Saving a few hundred dollars on a laptop? Or purchasing the machine that you feel allows you to work the most efficiently?

Veen 10y ago
> Saving a few hundred dollars on a laptop? Or purchasing the machine that you feel allows you to work the most efficiently? It's a fair point, but there's a limit. Pro's will pay over the odds for efficiency and ruggedness, but the new pricing has an air of exploitation. At some point, the prices become unjustifiable.
- MrScruff 10y ago
  > At some point, the prices become unjustifiable. In what sense though? Because the premium they're charging doesn't feel fair? That sounds odd to me. Pros have a history of paying ridiculous sums to work on exotic hardware like SGI's because it was the best tool for the job. A few hundred doesn't seem like that big a deal.
  - mercer 10y ago
    I'm afraid Apple is thinking exactly this way. As a 'Pro customer' I know that I can and probably will end up paying more for 'less' eventually and get one of the new MacBook Pros. But for the first time in my life as an Apple user (just short of 10 years, I think), for the very first time I feel the price is only barely justifiable and I actively looked into alternatives. I suppose the fact that I couldn't find an alternative that was good enough validates Apple's current offering and pricing. But it's a solid chunk of goodwill gone, and the moment I find an alternative that is good enough, they'll lose at least one well-paying customer. And even then it's probably not a problem for them. They make so much on their mobile devices that the Pro can be an afterthought.
  - Veen 10y ago

Theodores 10y ago

The 16Gb RAM 'let's throw the toys out of the pram' problem has not been handled very well. The Skylake CPUs I have seen all seem to be limited to 16Gb max RAM. Allegedly there are desktop variants that take more. The Skylake CPUs also have fewer cores in them than one might expect, e.g. two cores (with hyperthreading so '4') in a i7 CPU, for years one has expected four cores (with HT, so '8') in anything branded 'i7'. There is NVMe for the SSD and I am sure the Apple folks have some nifty driver to swap to disk a lot quicker than in the olden days. So main memory is a bit more like 'cache' in that there is no need to be that hung up on the specifics. If your main program can reside in 16Gb RAM with operating system then all is good. Throwing more memory at the CPU is not how it works on Skylake. Apple could have avoided the latest CPUs but imagine the outrage of 'old hardware' The new CPUs are low power, you get all day battery. I also wonder whether those people complaining about a lack of RAM are after selling website clicks or doing real work.

strictnein 10y ago
Really not sure where you're getting your info. The Skylake series is not limited to two cores and can handle more than 16GB. With DDR3 it's 32GB, with DDR4 it's 64GB. This is true of their mobile and desktop parts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_(microarchitecture)#List_of_Skylake_processors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_(microarchitecture)#Li... Edit: Maybe you're just confusing Skylake and Kaby Lake?

votr 10y ago

If Dell releases an XPS 15 in Q1 with Kaby Lake, discrete graphics, and 32GB ram, I'm in.

romanovcode 10y ago
And hopefully trackpad that is just as good.

GBKS 10y ago

Really don't understand this. Why can't those demanding Pro people just get iMacs. It's cheaper and supports 32GB of RAM. Of course, it's stationary, but pretty sure those specific professionals are mostly stationary anyways because they use multiple monitors. This while freak-out about the MBPs ist just silly.

pmarreck 10y ago
One of the benefits of being a developer is being able to develop from anywhere. If you're unable to take advantage of this, you're seriously missing out on one of the best perks IMHO.
satysin 10y ago
> Of course, it's stationary You answered your own question. I need a machine that is portable that I can hook up to multiple monitors at home and at work, and that I can use on the go for meetings, customer visits, etc. How the hell will an iMac help me there?
- GBKS 10y ago
  But that's a matter of priority then, isn't it? If portability is important then you have to sacrifice some power. I'm curious, what do you run on your computer to max out a brand-new MBP with 16GB of Ram? I currently do design and dev work on a 3 year old MBP with 8GB Ram. This includes running VMs for I.E. and back-ends for various projects, using Xcode to build apps, editing Sketch files with 50+ screens, photo editing in Photoshop and motion graphics in AfterEffects. Naturally I don't everything at once, but even with a combo of some of them, everything runs just fine. So this makes me genuinely curious what people do that these brand-new machines can't handle. And are those demands really the majority use case? If not, then there is an argument for having different machines for the demanding work loads and maybe a smaller laptop or even iPad for meetings. What are your thoughts?
sumoboy 10y ago
That's what apple wants you to do, buy a macbook and iMac. Apple had the competitive laptop edge for a long time but now they've lost it to dell, samsung, and hp.

rufius 10y ago

This is a sincere question: what do people need with 32 GB of RAM on a dev laptop? I work on an MBA 11" with 8GB and I'm using Parallels to run Visual Studio 2015 for a work related project (100k+ C#/C++ codebase). Other than that work I do some Haskell and C++ work locally. It chugs along just fine and I don't feel like I'm hurting with it compared to compiling on my dev box at work. Are people just spinning up a lot of VMs? I've got a beefy box at work for when I need to do heavy lifting because I value battery life on the laptop over doing it locally. Additionally, I like the static context - work on code at work ok beefy workstation then go home and remote in if I still have more to do. TL;DR: what are people's use cases for 32gb on a laptop if you're a developer? Why not remote into big box?

sigzero 10y ago
Every time I've seen someone ask for more RAM it has been because they are spinning up multiple VMs.
- monkmartinez 10y ago
  Or like 12 chrome tabs....
- rufius 10y ago
  Ya - that was my assumption though I can't envision spinning up more than one a laptop at a time. That said, I don't do client work so my context is relatively static.
strictnein 10y ago
Yes, VMs, used in a wide variety of ways. And being reliant on connectivity to a "big box" to simply get your work done is suboptimal. Also, how big of box do you need when you've got hundreds if not thousands of devs? Much easier (and cheaper, since there's no upkeep) to throw another 16GB of memory inside every developer's system.
- rufius 10y ago
  Well when I say big box, I mean big box per dev but I get your point. The message I'm getting from folks is that if you do contract/client work, you want everything local for many reasons. In my case, I work for a Large Software Company so my scenario is more constrained.

gog 10y ago

There is no magsafe to usb-c adapter which makes the power adapter coming from my Apple Thunderbolt display unusable. - have to buy a new power adapter so I don't have to carry one to work and I am still left with an unused wire appendix from the display - have to buy a Thunderbolt to USB-C adapter for the display - have to buy a new cable to connect iphone or USB stick, HDD, etc. to the laptop - have to pay the premium for the touch bar although most of the time I use the machine it is closed and connected to my display and keyboard - I can not connect the headphones from iphone 7 because of the missing lightning connector Hopefully they will realize how broken this is now for existing users and fix some of this nonsense next year.

reustle 10y ago
> have to pay the premium for the touch bar although most of the time I use the machine it is closed and connected to my display and keyboard Well at least this one is optional. I'm hoping more people opt for the function-key model, so they actually release one with 4 usb-c ports instead of 2. Why did they do that, anyway?
- gog 10y ago
  Unfortunately it is not optional if you also want the faster CPU.

gizmodo59 10y ago

Surface (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book/overview#surfaceconfiguration https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book...): 128GB/Intel® Core™ i5-8GB- $1,499 With tax the price comes to 1650. (I do realize its touch screen) Is M$FT trying the Apple's path?

iambrillant 10y ago

Whoa, what happened to the verge? Just scrolling through that page and my browser has downloaded ~100MB!

mcjiggerlog 10y ago
Damn, you weren't kidding - what the hell?

throw2016 10y ago

I think Apple mostly choose excellent components to build their devices, be it the screens, ssds or cameras. For a buyer getting an iPhone or Macbook is usually the best way to get hold of a well put together and high quality device. Sure you can get the same quality in other devices but it takes research and most devices of equivalent quality are usually as expensive as Apple devices and sometimes even more. The Dell XPS, Surface book or HP Spectre are not cheap or without issues. Even equivalently configured Asus Zenbooks with i5 and not core-m are not cheap. For instance the previous generation 13 retinas were the only laptops with 28W i5 SKUs. The rest of the i5 ultrabooks in the Windows ecosystem were the standard 15W SKUs, so with the Macbook 13 Retina you got slightly better performance and Iris graphics. The current dissappointment is valid as people rightly expect far more from Apple than boring incremental updates. The magsafe ommission is head scratching and 1299 to 1499 is a huge jump. I think people are getting disenchanted with paying for 'let's make things thin' brand of engineering that adds little to no value to end users.

chrisfarms 10y ago

As surprised as I am to say this; I think Google could steal a large chunk of the developer market overnight with some slight changes to Chrome OS. I needed an emergency machine last week (My 2011 Pro finally died), and I opt'd for a £200 Chromebook (EDGAR), thinking all I need is a browser and a terminal right this second and I'd worry about what Apple is doing later. A solid Linux laptop with working sleep, working wifi, great battery life. Tad underpowered but hey it's £200. I'm _really_ impressed. If Google relaxed the constraints a little on the OS, or supported a Crouton-like workflow for containers without having to stick it in dev-mode, they could make A LOT of developers very happy.

mi100hael 10y ago
I can't recommend Dell's Developer Edition laptops enough. I switched from a MacBook Pro about 6 months ago and haven't run into any of the usual obnoxious Linux-on-a-laptop headaches like sleep or wifi. http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-laptop http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-lapt...
- mercer 10y ago
  I'm leaning toward the XPS but I keep hearing that the trackpad is pretty shitty. Can you confirm/deny that?
  - mi100hael 10y ago
    It's not as good as the force trackpad on the current MBP, but it's not bad, either. My only real gripe is that the physical click is a little heavy & loud. I'd put it in the same ballpark with prior generations of MBPs that physically clicked. You can always go play with one at a Micro Center or other box store.
eloisant 10y ago
Don't you get a real, regular Linux distribution when using Crouton?

S_A_P 10y ago

This macbook pro is incompatible with my current set up and will not be purchased, as I had intended to prior to the launch event. I have 4 mag safe power supplies(I travel with one and I keep one at my desk) it was bad enough when you switched from mag safe one to mag safe 2. I use my Macbook pro to run logic and record and mix audio. I have an internal 256gb mini SD card that stores my samples. I will need dongles for my external ssds, my 2000 dollar UAD apollo 8 and several other USB synthesizers and drum machines. I have 8 years of logic projects that Im not intereted in converting to some other format. I dont think that Apple could have fucked over anyone who makes music much harder. Oh, and that touch strip? too small for anything but emoticons. I went from being semi excited about this macbook to realizing just how mid grade this thing really is. If the next update doesnt put the features I need back in place, this will be the last of my apple purchases. I've owned a mac pro, 4 macbook pros, every iphone save for the 3g. I like that you make them out of nice materials and strive for better. But you are now just making luxury laptops for consumers, not pros.

i_don_t_know 10y ago

A few days ago there was an article that some Thunderbolt devices don't work with the new machines. A little disconcerting but since I don't have any I don't care. But I do care about my USB-A devices. I don't mind using an adapter because I only need it at home on my desk. However the description of the Apple USB-C to USB-A adapter says it doesn't work with some devices. Great. Now what? [I'm also a little ticked off that they don't include an adapter in the box. Most people will have legacy USB-A devices and should need one.] CORRECTION: They don't say anything when I add the adapter to one of the new MacBook Pros during the purchase process. But they do include the caveat when I add the adapter to the 12" MacBook which I've also been looking at (sorry, German page): " Mit dem USB-C-auf-USB-Adapter kannst du dein MacBook mit USB-C-Anschluss an viele USB-Zubehörgeräte anschließen, z. B. an deine Kamera, einen Flash-Drive oder an ein Lightning auf USB-Kabel, um iPhone, iPad oder iPod aufzuladen und zu synchronisieren.* *Einige USB-Zubehörgeräte werden nicht unterstützt. " The last sentence reads: Some USB accessories are not supported.

matthewmacleod 10y ago
However the description of the Apple USB-C to USB-A adapter says it doesn't work with some devices. I'd be genuinely surprised by that though. Isn't it just a passive adapter?
- i_don_t_know 10y ago
  Correction: They don't say anything when I add the adapter to one of the new MacBook Pros during the purchase process. But they do include the caveat when I add the adapter to the 12" MacBook which I've also been looking at (sorry, German page): " Mit dem USB-C-auf-USB-Adapter kannst du dein MacBook mit USB-C-Anschluss an viele USB-Zubehörgeräte anschließen, z. B. an deine Kamera, einen Flash-Drive oder an ein Lightning auf USB-Kabel, um iPhone, iPad oder iPod aufzuladen und zu synchronisieren.* *Einige USB-Zubehörgeräte werden nicht unterstützt. " The last sentence reads: Some USB accessories are not supported.

wilsynet 10y ago

The worst part of the new MacBook Pro is the crappy keyboard. It's not unusable; it's just such a chore to use. Thank you Apple for making a computer for people who don't need to type very much.

audunw 10y ago

More of this? Does he really contribute anything new to this discussion? My impression is that the MBP 2016 is simply released at an unfortunate timing. If you look at the MacRumors buyers guide, you can see that the release schedule for the MBP has historically been less then a year. If they can get back to that schedule, they should be able to release a MBP with the specs people are nagging about around the time when a suitable Intel Processor with LPDDR4 is available. As for other common complaints. - Ergonomics: When has Apple ever had an ergonomic keyboard? If you're working long stretches, connect a proper keyboard and external display for gods sake - GPU: Apple has never pushed the boundaries there. If this hasn't been an issue for pro users before, I'm not sure it should be an issue now. - USB-C only: Typical Apple. Could pay of in a few years though. A world where everything is USB-C is definitely worth pushing for, and it's good that Apple sets an example there. In the meantime I think the 3rd party dongles look quite nice and very convenient. You could potentially have less cable mess by just getting a dongle with just the right ports for you: http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/01/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-adapters-hubs-2016-mbp/ http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/01/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-adap... - Lack of Magsafe: Sucks, but OK in the context of pushing for a industry-standard charger for everything. Third party cables can pick up this use-case just fine. So I think the heart of the matter is that Apple has chosen to optimize the power envelope of the Pro line, which has caused them to have to postpone upgrade of processor/RAM. This might seem stupid, but I think it's the right choice in the long term. I think the way things are going, pro users will offload more work to servers/cloud and external GPUs making the niche for a really powerful laptop too small. I also think Apple is making the right reason in focusing more on SSD performance than RAM size. SSD is becoming the new RAM, and RAM is becoming the new cache. RAM is going to be more tightly bonded to the CPU, even in high performance applications. Especially once Intel 3D-Xpoint/Octane hits the market. So what we're seeing is a generation shift in the tech, and Apple is simply skating to where the puck is going.

AlexandrB 10y ago
> - Ergonomics: When has Apple ever had an ergonomic keyboard? If you're working long stretches, connect a proper keyboard and external display for gods sake The old MacBook Pro keyboards were actually really good. Almost as good as the old (~2005) Thinkpad keyboards and definitely good enough for extended typing. While the ergonomics are obviously suboptimal when screen and keyboard are stuck together at least typing on the keys was pleasant and accurate.

cobralibre 10y ago

Many people were clinging on to their aging MacBook Pros in the vain hope of seeing a major spec and performance upgrade that simply didn’t materialize, and that's been frustrating. This statement is worth pausing on. Many users with "pro" needs (developers, video editors, photographers, etc.) replace their computers on a 3-4 year cycle. It's reasonable to expect significant enhancements related to those pro needs at the end of that cycle. Furthermore — and this is crucial — any new computer has to serve those pro needs for the next 3-4 years.

mercer 10y ago
I'm one of those people. Thankfully I can still do my work on my MacBook Air for a while yet, but my original plan was to buy a MacBook Pro last year. Now I'm just hoping I can comfortably continue using my MBA and pray that next year they either lower the prices, do something fancy to the specs, or, ideally, release a proper MacBook Pro (fat chance...). Worst case scenario I'll just buy the Pro they release next year, though. They probably know that there are many like me who would still go for the Pro even in its current incarnation, so I'm not keeping my hopes up that next year will be anything but an incremental update to the current, shitty Pros.

jsjohnst 10y ago

I shouldn't be surprised I guess, but I'm tired of seeing tech press make such ignorant articles re: tech. > this year's Kaby Lake You mean the processor which was announced two months before the MBP? The one that isn't available in a mobile processor with quad cores? > lack of 32gb RAM option You mean the fact that Intel doesn't support LPDDR4 on Skylake (or even Kaby Lake until ~2018) mobile processors? So was Apple supposed to just switch to desktop class processors in their unrealistically thin laptops? Have you used a laptop with it, they typically run extraordinarily hot and have terrible battery life, even with laptops with twice the battery. The real story that the new MacBook Pros reveal is that Intel is REALLY dropping the ball. If Apple thought they were ready to switch to ARM, my money is on they would've. The fact they didn't indicates to me that despite every effort, they couldn't yet (yet being the opporative word). (Now waiting for the downvotes from the folks who'd rather be cry Apple has lost its way rather than actually think about what could be the reasons. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot to bash Apple for, but the above two aren't them)

mercer 10y ago
Just a nitpick, but it's Kaby Lake, not Kalby Lake. That is all.
- jsjohnst 10y ago
  Thanks! Not sure how I typo'd twice when even A/C doesn't like the wrong spelling. (Edit: looking back on my posts here and elsewhere, seems I misspelled it more often than not, ugh)
RotsiserMho 10y ago
I'm pretty sure the mobile CPUs support at least 64GB of DDR3. So the memory subsystem would be desktop class but they could use the same mobile CPUs. Seems to me that might have been an option if they didn't also shrink the battery.
- jsjohnst 10y ago
  Actually, they don't. Per the Intel data sheet [0], the Skylake mobile processors don't even support DDR3, they support DDR3L (lower power variant of DDR3), LPDDR3 (what the MacBook Pro uses), and DDR4. Here's the max system memory per memory type: DDR3L: 16gb (page 20) DDR4: 32gb (page 21) LPDDR3: 16gb (page 21) So the only way Apple could've supported more than 16gb RAM would've been to support DDR4. [1] I am far from an expert, but I believe DDR4 is only available in an SO-DIMM package [3]. Sure, we would all LOVE Apple to support upgradeable memory again, but that's very likely not going to happen. Just think how much thicker (teh horror!) the laptop would have to be to support that! [2] I also suspect that Apple is using the Y-processor line which only supports LPDDR3 memory (per page 19), so that further negates the ability to use DDR4 memory. Again, this part is unconfirmed, but would make sense. [0] http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/datasheets/6th-gen-core-family-mobile-u-y-processor-lines-datasheet-vol-1.pdf http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/... [1] I'm still curious how Intel claims the processor supports up to 64gb RAM on the short form of the processor specs. I could not find a configuration in the detailed data sheets that allowed 64gb of RAM. [2] (sarcasm intended there, obviously it could be easily thicker and most people wouldn't mind) Edit: [3] Seems I likely am wrong. DDR4 is supported in a "Memory Down" configuration as well. This would've allowed Apple to use DDR4 memory if they used a U-processor line and also used DDR4 memory. From what I am reading online (no official sources, so not linking to more speculation), this would've had a battery impact of up to 20%, thus very likely why Apple didn't do it. More info on "Memory Down" here: http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/white-papers/ia-system-memory-down-paper.pdf http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/...

blackoil 10y ago

I would love for Dell/HP to seize this moment and announce a completely new line/brand of laptops segmented from current brands to just compete head-on with Macbook. Just 3-4 models <Dellbook> 13, 15 and <Dellbook> Pro 13, 15, match Apple build quality 1-1, make them high price/margin. Up the specs kabylake, 32 GB, support both Windows/Linux. Seems we have some pent up demand for this.

mercer 10y ago
If they can get the trackpads to work as well as the Mac's, and offer some kind of Apple Care equivalent that isn't shitty (maybe they already do?), I'd be interested.

EmmEff 10y ago

IMO, the majority of "pros" that have made the most noise about the latest MacBook Pro aren't pros at all.