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I think the Perl community had a lot to do with Perl falling off in popularity. The standard reply to questions posted the "Beginners Perl" mailing list was "RT

by oblib 10y ago

I think the Perl community had a lot to do with Perl falling off in popularity. The standard reply to questions posted the "Beginners Perl" mailing list was "RTFM dumbass". The "Learning Perl" book sucked hugely. CPAN is pretty cool but too many modules have poor documentation and almost no example code. Web app frameworks got convoluted and didn't make things easier and tended to lock you into doing things their way. Despite that, I still liked perl because it did let me do things my way. I waited and waited for Perl 6, and then quit caring. This year I finally rewrote a perl/cgi web app in Javascript. What little server side I code I needed I used Perl 5 but there was very little.

grzm 10y ago
"The "Learning Perl" book sucked hugely." Wow. It's always interesting to see how people can have such different takes on things. Perhaps it was the time in my programming career that I read it, but I remember being impressed with some of the programming practices it instilled. Never used Perl a whole lot, but the way Schwartz presented programming, not just Perl, I found very useful.
- rodgerd 10y ago
  Definitely. The Perl books (Learning, Programming, and Cookbook) were all, for me, excellent. c.l.p.m. on the other hand, was a hatefest dominated by people who seemed to resent the peasants daring to touch "their" precious programming language.
  - oblib 10y ago
    That's exactly what I ran into. I needed to learn how to write cgi scripts and I didn't know much about coding at all. Almost nothing. I suppose we came in hordes and stormed their gates but all they really had to do was provide us with a space and that didn't happen. Ironically, they did the same thing with the Raspberry Pi foundation reached out to them. No one responded. I even went back to the "Perl Beginner's" mailing list and told them about the RPi Foundation and that Perl was being reviewed for the languages they would support with their Edu projects. No one responded. At that point I don't think Larry Wall was involved much with Perl 5. And I know a few years before that he was frustrated with with lack of a cohesive path for Perl 6, and that not long ago he talked about how the Perl 6 Community had to reach out to educators and get involved with programs for kids. The Python community did respond To the RPi Foundation when they reached out, and in a big way too. That's paid off big for them and the Foundation. Kids are growing up with Python now and will know it well and use it. This evolution of languages has been interesting to observe.
gotofritz 10y ago
> I think the Perl community had a lot to do with Perl falling off in popularity. The standard reply to questions posted the "Beginners Perl" mailing list was "RTFM dumbass". Perl is the only language where devs see unreadability as a badge of coolness, indeed there was even an Obfuscated Perl Contest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obfuscated_Perl_Contest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obfuscated_Perl_Contest (There are golfing competitions in other languages, for example js1k, but the focus there is download size, the fact the code is obfuscated is a side effect rather than the point)
- int_19h 10y ago
  Um, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Code_Contest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Cod... was there 12 years before OPC.
  - gotofritz 10y ago
    TIL
- oblib 10y ago
  I remember those... And let's not forget Perl Poetry: http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol5_1/tpj0501-0012.html http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol5_1/tpj0501-0012.html
zoffix222 10y ago
You're confusing Perl 5 and Perl 6. The two are different languages with vastly different communities.
- oblib 10y ago
  There is very much a relation to the two and why Perl 6 has not garnered the enthusiastic community Perl 4 and 5 had 10-15 years ago. When I was still active on their mailing list there was a lot of excitement around Perl 6. By the time I left most others had already been long gone. They'd gotten smacked too many times. None of that is Larry Wall's fault. He's been herding cats since he started these projects. I think Larry is great.
SwellJoe 10y ago
This was not my experience with Perl, at all. Perl was the first really welcoming programming community I found on the web. Not the only one, I'm sure, but it stood out in remarkable ways. Perl Monks was super helpful to beginners and intermediate Perl programmers; unmatched then or now, I think; maybe the Go community is a modern parellel, as it has a very beginner-friendly culture, IME. IRC was always great (though I must concede it is somewhat cranky these day...not unhelpful, but not always as gentle about helping as it once was). I don't know which "Beginners Perl" mailing list you're referring to, but the ones I used to follow when I was learning (a couple of decades ago) were very helpful. I'm sure there are cranky old Perlmongers in this world. And, it's been so long since I was paying close attention to beginner resources that I may have missed a shift in tone in that time. But, Perl, to me, was a great learning language. And, I liked Learning Perl, though I think the Camel is a better book, and if you're not a true programming beginner, Programming Perl is the better book to read. Learning Perl teaches Perl and programming at the same time, and may not be the best way to learn either; though, again, I thought it was quite good, and was very empowering for me.
- oblib 10y ago
  "Learning Perl teaches Perl and programming at the same time, and may not be the best way to learn either;" That's a great point. I've never thought of it like that but that is no doubt the reason why I strained with "Learning Perl". Thanks for pointing that out!
mst 10y ago
That mailing list acquired moderators who'd smack people for doing that a few years back. We've taken something of a chainsaw to the 'RTFM dumbass' side of the community over the past half-decade or so - you can even discuss perl on irc.perl.org #perl these days.
- oblib 10y ago
  I'm really glad to hear this. It's probably been just a year or two more than that since I signed off on those I subscribed to. That makes me want to join again!

by oblib 10y ago

grzm 10y ago

"The "Learning Perl" book sucked hugely." Wow. It's always interesting to see how people can have such different takes on things. Perhaps it was the time in my programming career that I read it, but I remember being impressed with some of the programming practices it instilled. Never used Perl a whole lot, but the way Schwartz presented programming, not just Perl, I found very useful.

rodgerd 10y ago
Definitely. The Perl books (Learning, Programming, and Cookbook) were all, for me, excellent. c.l.p.m. on the other hand, was a hatefest dominated by people who seemed to resent the peasants daring to touch "their" precious programming language.
- oblib 10y ago
  That's exactly what I ran into. I needed to learn how to write cgi scripts and I didn't know much about coding at all. Almost nothing. I suppose we came in hordes and stormed their gates but all they really had to do was provide us with a space and that didn't happen. Ironically, they did the same thing with the Raspberry Pi foundation reached out to them. No one responded. I even went back to the "Perl Beginner's" mailing list and told them about the RPi Foundation and that Perl was being reviewed for the languages they would support with their Edu projects. No one responded. At that point I don't think Larry Wall was involved much with Perl 5. And I know a few years before that he was frustrated with with lack of a cohesive path for Perl 6, and that not long ago he talked about how the Perl 6 Community had to reach out to educators and get involved with programs for kids. The Python community did respond To the RPi Foundation when they reached out, and in a big way too. That's paid off big for them and the Foundation. Kids are growing up with Python now and will know it well and use it. This evolution of languages has been interesting to observe.

gotofritz 10y ago

> I think the Perl community had a lot to do with Perl falling off in popularity. The standard reply to questions posted the "Beginners Perl" mailing list was "RTFM dumbass". Perl is the only language where devs see unreadability as a badge of coolness, indeed there was even an Obfuscated Perl Contest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obfuscated_Perl_Contest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obfuscated_Perl_Contest (There are golfing competitions in other languages, for example js1k, but the focus there is download size, the fact the code is obfuscated is a side effect rather than the point)

int_19h 10y ago
Um, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Code_Contest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Cod... was there 12 years before OPC.
- gotofritz 10y ago
  TIL
oblib 10y ago
I remember those... And let's not forget Perl Poetry: http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol5_1/tpj0501-0012.html http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol5_1/tpj0501-0012.html

zoffix222 10y ago

You're confusing Perl 5 and Perl 6. The two are different languages with vastly different communities.

oblib 10y ago
There is very much a relation to the two and why Perl 6 has not garnered the enthusiastic community Perl 4 and 5 had 10-15 years ago. When I was still active on their mailing list there was a lot of excitement around Perl 6. By the time I left most others had already been long gone. They'd gotten smacked too many times. None of that is Larry Wall's fault. He's been herding cats since he started these projects. I think Larry is great.

SwellJoe 10y ago

This was not my experience with Perl, at all. Perl was the first really welcoming programming community I found on the web. Not the only one, I'm sure, but it stood out in remarkable ways. Perl Monks was super helpful to beginners and intermediate Perl programmers; unmatched then or now, I think; maybe the Go community is a modern parellel, as it has a very beginner-friendly culture, IME. IRC was always great (though I must concede it is somewhat cranky these day...not unhelpful, but not always as gentle about helping as it once was). I don't know which "Beginners Perl" mailing list you're referring to, but the ones I used to follow when I was learning (a couple of decades ago) were very helpful. I'm sure there are cranky old Perlmongers in this world. And, it's been so long since I was paying close attention to beginner resources that I may have missed a shift in tone in that time. But, Perl, to me, was a great learning language. And, I liked Learning Perl, though I think the Camel is a better book, and if you're not a true programming beginner, Programming Perl is the better book to read. Learning Perl teaches Perl and programming at the same time, and may not be the best way to learn either; though, again, I thought it was quite good, and was very empowering for me.

oblib 10y ago
"Learning Perl teaches Perl and programming at the same time, and may not be the best way to learn either;" That's a great point. I've never thought of it like that but that is no doubt the reason why I strained with "Learning Perl". Thanks for pointing that out!

mst 10y ago

That mailing list acquired moderators who'd smack people for doing that a few years back. We've taken something of a chainsaw to the 'RTFM dumbass' side of the community over the past half-decade or so - you can even discuss perl on irc.perl.org #perl these days.

oblib 10y ago
I'm really glad to hear this. It's probably been just a year or two more than that since I signed off on those I subscribed to. That makes me want to join again!