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I've never been to Delhi, I don't have plans to go, so I can't really explain why this makes me so angry. It's the tragedy of the commons, an entire city of pe

by habosa 10y ago

I've never been to Delhi, I don't have plans to go, so I can't really explain why this makes me so angry. It's the tragedy of the commons, an entire city of people slowly killing each other. What's going on over there? Can anyone who knows more about India explain why the people and the government would let things get like this? To pollute our own towns to the point of suffocation says something terrible about human nature.

accurrent 10y ago
It's easy to blame the people and the gov't for pollution, but having lived in both India and China the story is quite different. You have swathes of population that need employment . In order to keep the economy productive you have to have manufacturing activity. To support the manufacturing activity one must produce energy. Naturally coal being abundant and cheap becomes the first choice for governments to use for energy production. While we can criticise the coal plants for being polluting without them there is no source of employment. Most renewables are too expensive/unreliable to use and nuclear power plants alway come along with a lot of controversy. Another thing to note is that the overall pollution per capita in India or China is far less than any of the western nations. Its just that these countries have way too many people in too less space. As for schools closing due to pollution, I can say that this is common all across asia. The thing is many of the industries that pollute go unchecked partly due to corruption and partly due to the fact that if they are fined they will just withdraw from the area of operation causing many to loose their means of living. In a place like india this becomes a question of life or death because many earn too less to save enough. The question that lies ahead is more "how can we solve this issue" than to lay blame. Perhaps the government needs to look at what the pollution is made up of and specifically target those industries.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  > Another thing to note is that the overall pollution per capita in India or China is far less than any of the western nations. This isn't true, not for the type of pollution relevant to this discussion anyway (particulates suspended in air). A single two stroke moped releases 10-1000X the amount of air pollution per kilometer as a modern car with a catalytic converter, despite the latter being much larger. India is full of such mopeds. Here's a study about them: http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4749 http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4749 The figure you cited, that citizens of developed nations pollute more than citizens of developing nation , is specifically a statistic about carbon dioxide emissions. Most other kinds of pollution are worse per capita in developing industrial nations owing to less strict emissions controls.
stillworks 10y ago
Lack of foresight. Instead of making private vehicle ownership difficult like in Singapore, vehicle sale is encouraged. The entire city is ripped up for massive construction projects. There's massive amount of construction related debris in the air. There is a very wide spectrum of economic disparity. There is a significant section of population which probably use wood fire or coal for cooking or heating during winter months. Tonnes of wet garbage/refuse is burnt in and around the city. It doesn't rain or get very windy during the winter months thus the air remains stagnant. A very high population density. Most people don't understand the difference between fog and smog. No initiative from the government to educate the population or raise awareness. The government structure in India just lays out too many bureaucratic hurdles when an immediate action is needed in such situations. When the PM2.5 levels are 5x to 8x the safety threshold, there should be enough power and balls in the hands of some leadership to enforce a complete and indefinite curfew for greater good but sadly that will never happen. Having a month of odd-even plate curfew of private vehicles will not help clear up the air where PM2.5 levels are beyond toxic. A three days shut down of schools is not going to help as well. In my view, there should be the strictest curfew until PM2.5 levels are sustained to 100 or below for a month before anybody is even allowed to leave home unless somebody can think of a better way to save people from an upcoming epidemic of smoke/particulate related degenerative diseases which will affect an entire generation which is currently growing up in Delhi.
ssgao 10y ago
Leonardo Dicaprio's interview with Sunita Narain in Before the flood is a very good explanation of why this happens. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90CkXVF-Q8M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90CkXVF-Q8M (starting from 33:20 for 5 mins).
bogomipz 10y ago
But Delhi is also an amazing place! There's nowhere else quite like it in the world. Its colorful, rich in culture, in history, in food, tradition and experience. The city is more than just its air quality! Can I recommend picking up a copy of William Dalrymple's "City of Djinns"? https://www.amazon.com/City-Djinns-Delhi-William-Dalrymple/dp/0142001007 https://www.amazon.com/City-Djinns-Delhi-William-Dalrymple/d...
- milanello1 10y ago
  It's an amazing place to visit but not live long-term. If you stay here long enough, you'll slowly start to go crazy. Unless you are part of the 'expat' crew then I guess maybe it's tolerable.
rehevkor5 10y ago
Among other things, anecdotally the locals mention lack of enforced fuel regulations as one problem. Apparently there is a lot of adulterants in the fuel used for cars.

by habosa 10y ago

accurrent 10y ago

It's easy to blame the people and the gov't for pollution, but having lived in both India and China the story is quite different. You have swathes of population that need employment . In order to keep the economy productive you have to have manufacturing activity. To support the manufacturing activity one must produce energy. Naturally coal being abundant and cheap becomes the first choice for governments to use for energy production. While we can criticise the coal plants for being polluting without them there is no source of employment. Most renewables are too expensive/unreliable to use and nuclear power plants alway come along with a lot of controversy. Another thing to note is that the overall pollution per capita in India or China is far less than any of the western nations. Its just that these countries have way too many people in too less space. As for schools closing due to pollution, I can say that this is common all across asia. The thing is many of the industries that pollute go unchecked partly due to corruption and partly due to the fact that if they are fined they will just withdraw from the area of operation causing many to loose their means of living. In a place like india this becomes a question of life or death because many earn too less to save enough. The question that lies ahead is more "how can we solve this issue" than to lay blame. Perhaps the government needs to look at what the pollution is made up of and specifically target those industries.

CydeWeys 10y ago
> Another thing to note is that the overall pollution per capita in India or China is far less than any of the western nations. This isn't true, not for the type of pollution relevant to this discussion anyway (particulates suspended in air). A single two stroke moped releases 10-1000X the amount of air pollution per kilometer as a modern car with a catalytic converter, despite the latter being much larger. India is full of such mopeds. Here's a study about them: http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4749 http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4749 The figure you cited, that citizens of developed nations pollute more than citizens of developing nation , is specifically a statistic about carbon dioxide emissions. Most other kinds of pollution are worse per capita in developing industrial nations owing to less strict emissions controls.

stillworks 10y ago

Lack of foresight. Instead of making private vehicle ownership difficult like in Singapore, vehicle sale is encouraged. The entire city is ripped up for massive construction projects. There's massive amount of construction related debris in the air. There is a very wide spectrum of economic disparity. There is a significant section of population which probably use wood fire or coal for cooking or heating during winter months. Tonnes of wet garbage/refuse is burnt in and around the city. It doesn't rain or get very windy during the winter months thus the air remains stagnant. A very high population density. Most people don't understand the difference between fog and smog. No initiative from the government to educate the population or raise awareness. The government structure in India just lays out too many bureaucratic hurdles when an immediate action is needed in such situations. When the PM2.5 levels are 5x to 8x the safety threshold, there should be enough power and balls in the hands of some leadership to enforce a complete and indefinite curfew for greater good but sadly that will never happen. Having a month of odd-even plate curfew of private vehicles will not help clear up the air where PM2.5 levels are beyond toxic. A three days shut down of schools is not going to help as well. In my view, there should be the strictest curfew until PM2.5 levels are sustained to 100 or below for a month before anybody is even allowed to leave home unless somebody can think of a better way to save people from an upcoming epidemic of smoke/particulate related degenerative diseases which will affect an entire generation which is currently growing up in Delhi.

ssgao 10y ago

Leonardo Dicaprio's interview with Sunita Narain in Before the flood is a very good explanation of why this happens. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90CkXVF-Q8M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90CkXVF-Q8M (starting from 33:20 for 5 mins).

bogomipz 10y ago

But Delhi is also an amazing place! There's nowhere else quite like it in the world. Its colorful, rich in culture, in history, in food, tradition and experience. The city is more than just its air quality! Can I recommend picking up a copy of William Dalrymple's "City of Djinns"? https://www.amazon.com/City-Djinns-Delhi-William-Dalrymple/dp/0142001007 https://www.amazon.com/City-Djinns-Delhi-William-Dalrymple/d...

milanello1 10y ago
It's an amazing place to visit but not live long-term. If you stay here long enough, you'll slowly start to go crazy. Unless you are part of the 'expat' crew then I guess maybe it's tolerable.

rehevkor5 10y ago

Among other things, anecdotally the locals mention lack of enforced fuel regulations as one problem. Apparently there is a lot of adulterants in the fuel used for cars.