8 ms·

It's still not a good sign that it took this level of public attention to get you to reply to the active community on their urgent needs.

kinow 10y ago
Indeed. Probably having more people with admin access would help making sure that the project's bus factor is greater than 1 :)
dmuth 10y ago
^ this. There is absolutely no reason to not be answering emails, even if to say, "I'm really swamped, and need help." I don't mean to denigrate you, but I must be candid here: hoarding admin rights so that only you have them and no one else can get any work done is simply not acceptable in a team environment. Going forward, I would recommend taking a look through other projects you may be involved with, and make sure that you are not the only person with admin access. If nothing else, it would increase the "bus factor" to greater than 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor Good luck.
- danielheath 10y ago
  There is absolutely no reason to expect volunteers to owe you their time or responses. I don't mean to denigrate you, but I must be candid here: demanding work from others without putting in the hard yards yourself is simply not acceptable. Going forward, I would recommend taking a look at your written communication, and make sure that you are being fair and kind. Good luck.
  - aub3bhat 10y ago
    I don't know why you are being downvoted, but I agree with you. The level of entitlement expressed on this forum is off the charts. This behavior is reflected in this case or in case of RethinkDB or any other startup which is closing down, where the frame of mind or needs of the people who build/maintain are secondary to those of customer/users. Its quite a paradox.
    - rootlocus 10y ago
      > The level of entitlement expressed on this forum is off the charts. This is ridiculous. Expecting the maintainer who hasn't contributed for over a year (hasn't given any life signs or shown any interest) to give admin rights to someone who genuinely cares about the project isn't entitlement. It's the absolute minimum he could do to keep the project alive at the expense of other peoples time and effort.
      - inimino 10y ago
        Not really. People die unexpectedly. Things come up. Adopting a project with a bus factor of one and expecting things to just work out, and blaming that person instead of yourself when they don't... I think that's pretty close to "entitlement", with a dash of wishful thinking.
        enraged_camel 10y ago
        Look, open-source projects may be "free" in the sense that you don't pay money for them, but they still cost time. Time to learn, time to integrate into your project, time to debug if things go wrong. Not to mention time to switch to another library if the one you picked doesn't work out for some reason. As such, there exists a kind of implied social contract between the project owner and users. The owner wants people to use the library[1] and improve it, and the users in turn want semi-frequent updates/fixes and to be informed about the status of the project. Projects that are regularly updated receive more users and contributors, who in turn help provide bug reports, improvement ideas and PRs. Calling users "entitled" for asking the owners to adhere to the aforementioned social contract, which defines open-source and holds it together like glue, betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of what this ecosystem is and how it manages to be a legitimate alternative to commercial software. [1]If the owner has other reasons for putting up the project on Github/Gitlab etc (e.g. it's their hobby project, or they want to showcase their code to potential employers), and has no intention to support it, then they should include a note in the readme that the code is not intended for production use. Problem solved.
        10y ago
  - enraged_camel 10y ago
    He didn't demand "work", he simply pointed out that hibernating or abandoning a project many people have come to rely on without arranging for others to (at least temporarily) take over is irresponsible and causes a lot of frustration.
    - lukeschlather 10y ago
      Answering emails is work. It's also often a lot harder than it sounds at first blush.
      - enraged_camel 10y ago
        Setting up auto-reply takes 10 minutes. All modern email clients allow creating auto-reply rules based on who the email is from or the words the subject line or body contain. "Thank you for your email. This is an automated reply to let you know that active development of this project is currently on hold. If you have any questions, please email bob@project.com, who is the current maintainer." That's it.
    - dmuth 10y ago
      Pretty much that. And to elaborate, there is no shame at all asking for help. I can think of a few ways in which to do this: - If you are the sole maintainer of a project, putting up a note in the README asking for a co-maintainer or someone to take over the project entirely. - Responding to emails with, "I'm swamped/I don't think I can do this right now, can you help/would you be willing take on this role?" Totally acceptable. There are lots of eager developers out there who would be willing to contribute to an open source project if they could. - Posting on HN asking if anyone is willing to help out. :-) I get that sometimes stuff happens in real life--illness, working long hours, taking care of children or family members--these are all perfectly valid reasons for not being able to put in the time needed to work on an open source project. However, the developer community cannot offer its help if said help is not asked for.
- junkster78 10y ago
  Totally agree. Even worst, the community has already forked and is getting aligned behind https://github.com/spotbugs/spotbugs https://github.com/spotbugs/spotbugs, his reappearance puts FindBugs in a very dangerous place. It either stays forked, with split efforts and APIs diverging forward, or it's shutdown to trust Bill again and hope for the best. I for one have lost all trust on his ability to lead the project after such long absence, and the fact that he only reappeared after this hit HN, and only to respond here, to me is an indication he cares more about what people may be thinking / saying of him, than the well being of FindBugs. I fear, the only way for FindBugs to stay alive, is for Bill to do what he probably should have done a long time ago: step down.
  - issaria 10y ago
    This is also the problem for other projects, the leaders' unwilling to giveup their position even they are inactive for a very long time and just hoping someone could help rescuing the dead horse. https://github.com/jimbaker/talks/blob/master/jython-talk-pycon-2015.md#various-tweets https://github.com/jimbaker/talks/blob/master/jython-talk-py...
- inimino 10y ago
  > There is absolutely no reason to not be answering emails Sometimes there is. You can express your disappointment in how a project is managed without implying that someone else isn't living their life properly.
  - AstralStorm 10y ago
    Yes, we all need to prevent speaking to prevent implications. ;) Or are you implying the author is so thin skinned he cannot take a bit of judgement?
erikb 10y ago
You must have paid 4 digits or more for his services then? Otherwise I think you can't demand any attention at all and be happy if you receive it.
- winteriscoming 10y ago
  I have been involved in open source and non-commercial, volunteer driven projects for at least a decade. It's true that it's not right to demand volunteers who spend their time on the projects to answer questions. However, in this case, having read the mailing list thread and even the parent post to which you replied, I don't believe anyone is _demanding_ anything from the project owner. People who are passionate about a project, as a user or contributor, do tend to ask what the status/roadmap of a project is. At least in open source projects I contribute to, that's not considered as demanding something from the project leaders, just because no one has paid for the project. IMO, there are times where it's valid to state that no one has paid for the project so aren't entitled to anything, but I don't think this case is a valid one. I've seen this statement being used many times with open source projects and such project usually tend to lose sight that users are a central part of open source projects.
  - erikb 10y ago
    I agree with all you say. And I also understand being angry about a project for not considering me as a user enough. However, "There is absolutely no reason to not be answering emails" gave me the impression that at least one person is demanding replies to emails. I still feel it's okay to tell the quoted person that if he doesn't pay someone he can't demand from that person to answer emails. Last but not least, if someone hasn't answered emails for some time, who seemingly had enough trust before to be important in a software project, then it may be wise, even for people with legit demands, to see whether or not that person had good reasons for his absense or not.
- kylebrown 10y ago
  According to the website, FindBugs was partially funded by a couple of NSF grants. So US taxpayers did indirectly pay for his services.
winteriscoming 10y ago
I agree. It's also odd that this clarification of the project status has been posted here now and there has been no reply to that thread in (what I think is) the official mailing list, which has been going on for around a week, where people have been trying to get in touch with him.

kinow 10y ago

Indeed. Probably having more people with admin access would help making sure that the project's bus factor is greater than 1 :)

dmuth 10y ago

^ this. There is absolutely no reason to not be answering emails, even if to say, "I'm really swamped, and need help." I don't mean to denigrate you, but I must be candid here: hoarding admin rights so that only you have them and no one else can get any work done is simply not acceptable in a team environment. Going forward, I would recommend taking a look through other projects you may be involved with, and make sure that you are not the only person with admin access. If nothing else, it would increase the "bus factor" to greater than 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor Good luck.

danielheath 10y ago
There is absolutely no reason to expect volunteers to owe you their time or responses. I don't mean to denigrate you, but I must be candid here: demanding work from others without putting in the hard yards yourself is simply not acceptable. Going forward, I would recommend taking a look at your written communication, and make sure that you are being fair and kind. Good luck.
- aub3bhat 10y ago
  I don't know why you are being downvoted, but I agree with you. The level of entitlement expressed on this forum is off the charts. This behavior is reflected in this case or in case of RethinkDB or any other startup which is closing down, where the frame of mind or needs of the people who build/maintain are secondary to those of customer/users. Its quite a paradox.
  - rootlocus 10y ago
    > The level of entitlement expressed on this forum is off the charts. This is ridiculous. Expecting the maintainer who hasn't contributed for over a year (hasn't given any life signs or shown any interest) to give admin rights to someone who genuinely cares about the project isn't entitlement. It's the absolute minimum he could do to keep the project alive at the expense of other peoples time and effort.
    - inimino 10y ago
      Not really. People die unexpectedly. Things come up. Adopting a project with a bus factor of one and expecting things to just work out, and blaming that person instead of yourself when they don't... I think that's pretty close to "entitlement", with a dash of wishful thinking.
      - enraged_camel 10y ago
        Look, open-source projects may be "free" in the sense that you don't pay money for them, but they still cost time. Time to learn, time to integrate into your project, time to debug if things go wrong. Not to mention time to switch to another library if the one you picked doesn't work out for some reason. As such, there exists a kind of implied social contract between the project owner and users. The owner wants people to use the library[1] and improve it, and the users in turn want semi-frequent updates/fixes and to be informed about the status of the project. Projects that are regularly updated receive more users and contributors, who in turn help provide bug reports, improvement ideas and PRs. Calling users "entitled" for asking the owners to adhere to the aforementioned social contract, which defines open-source and holds it together like glue, betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of what this ecosystem is and how it manages to be a legitimate alternative to commercial software. [1]If the owner has other reasons for putting up the project on Github/Gitlab etc (e.g. it's their hobby project, or they want to showcase their code to potential employers), and has no intention to support it, then they should include a note in the readme that the code is not intended for production use. Problem solved.
        10y ago
- enraged_camel 10y ago
  He didn't demand "work", he simply pointed out that hibernating or abandoning a project many people have come to rely on without arranging for others to (at least temporarily) take over is irresponsible and causes a lot of frustration.
  - lukeschlather 10y ago
    Answering emails is work. It's also often a lot harder than it sounds at first blush.
    - enraged_camel 10y ago
      Setting up auto-reply takes 10 minutes. All modern email clients allow creating auto-reply rules based on who the email is from or the words the subject line or body contain. "Thank you for your email. This is an automated reply to let you know that active development of this project is currently on hold. If you have any questions, please email bob@project.com, who is the current maintainer." That's it.
  - dmuth 10y ago
    Pretty much that. And to elaborate, there is no shame at all asking for help. I can think of a few ways in which to do this: - If you are the sole maintainer of a project, putting up a note in the README asking for a co-maintainer or someone to take over the project entirely. - Responding to emails with, "I'm swamped/I don't think I can do this right now, can you help/would you be willing take on this role?" Totally acceptable. There are lots of eager developers out there who would be willing to contribute to an open source project if they could. - Posting on HN asking if anyone is willing to help out. :-) I get that sometimes stuff happens in real life--illness, working long hours, taking care of children or family members--these are all perfectly valid reasons for not being able to put in the time needed to work on an open source project. However, the developer community cannot offer its help if said help is not asked for.
junkster78 10y ago
Totally agree. Even worst, the community has already forked and is getting aligned behind https://github.com/spotbugs/spotbugs https://github.com/spotbugs/spotbugs, his reappearance puts FindBugs in a very dangerous place. It either stays forked, with split efforts and APIs diverging forward, or it's shutdown to trust Bill again and hope for the best. I for one have lost all trust on his ability to lead the project after such long absence, and the fact that he only reappeared after this hit HN, and only to respond here, to me is an indication he cares more about what people may be thinking / saying of him, than the well being of FindBugs. I fear, the only way for FindBugs to stay alive, is for Bill to do what he probably should have done a long time ago: step down.
- issaria 10y ago
  This is also the problem for other projects, the leaders' unwilling to giveup their position even they are inactive for a very long time and just hoping someone could help rescuing the dead horse. https://github.com/jimbaker/talks/blob/master/jython-talk-pycon-2015.md#various-tweets https://github.com/jimbaker/talks/blob/master/jython-talk-py...
inimino 10y ago
> There is absolutely no reason to not be answering emails Sometimes there is. You can express your disappointment in how a project is managed without implying that someone else isn't living their life properly.
- AstralStorm 10y ago
  Yes, we all need to prevent speaking to prevent implications. ;) Or are you implying the author is so thin skinned he cannot take a bit of judgement?

erikb 10y ago

You must have paid 4 digits or more for his services then? Otherwise I think you can't demand any attention at all and be happy if you receive it.

winteriscoming 10y ago
I have been involved in open source and non-commercial, volunteer driven projects for at least a decade. It's true that it's not right to demand volunteers who spend their time on the projects to answer questions. However, in this case, having read the mailing list thread and even the parent post to which you replied, I don't believe anyone is _demanding_ anything from the project owner. People who are passionate about a project, as a user or contributor, do tend to ask what the status/roadmap of a project is. At least in open source projects I contribute to, that's not considered as demanding something from the project leaders, just because no one has paid for the project. IMO, there are times where it's valid to state that no one has paid for the project so aren't entitled to anything, but I don't think this case is a valid one. I've seen this statement being used many times with open source projects and such project usually tend to lose sight that users are a central part of open source projects.
- erikb 10y ago
  I agree with all you say. And I also understand being angry about a project for not considering me as a user enough. However, "There is absolutely no reason to not be answering emails" gave me the impression that at least one person is demanding replies to emails. I still feel it's okay to tell the quoted person that if he doesn't pay someone he can't demand from that person to answer emails. Last but not least, if someone hasn't answered emails for some time, who seemingly had enough trust before to be important in a software project, then it may be wise, even for people with legit demands, to see whether or not that person had good reasons for his absense or not.
kylebrown 10y ago
According to the website, FindBugs was partially funded by a couple of NSF grants. So US taxpayers did indirectly pay for his services.

winteriscoming 10y ago

I agree. It's also odd that this clarification of the project status has been posted here now and there has been no reply to that thread in (what I think is) the official mailing list, which has been going on for around a week, where people have been trying to get in touch with him.