8 ms·

Good thing every election in the USA has a full and public counting of all ballots cast.

by rmah 10y ago

XorNot 10y ago
The US excessive use of automated vote counting machines does not inspire confidence. Australia has a total hand count with machine verification (if they disagree the hand count is redone) and party observers. Combined with mandatory voting I have total confidence in our system as one of the best in the world.
- bsbechtel 10y ago
  Mandatory voting is common in many places outside of the US, but I feel like it's something that can lead down a dangerous path. You shouldn't be compelled to choose a leader if you disapprove of the choices, I think that's a freedom I think everyone deserves.
  - wastedhours 10y ago
    In mandatory voting systems do you have to actually vote? Or just turn up and submit a ballot paper, whether filled in, empty or spoiled?
    - smspillaz 10y ago
      A ballot paper that doesn't clearly indicate preference order or identifies the voter is counted as "informal" and removed from the pool [0]. I don't believe it is an offence to vote informally but even if it was the anonyminity of the ballot woult make it impossible to enforce. In the last Federal Election the overall informal vote share was about 5.92%. In some electorates it was above 10% [1]. The AEC doesn't distinguish between votes that were intentionally invalid and votes that were unintentionally invalid. I used to work as an electoral officer and in my experience the latter usually far outweighed the former. I saw very few if any ballots that were totally blank, about 10-15 where the person tried to make a statement of some sort and the rest were people who did not understand the instructions and number every box. As far as I can tell, elections in Australia are seen as something you don't really ignore despite your individual disdain for politics. [0] http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/informal_voting/ http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/informal_voting/ [1] http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/informal_voting/division.htm http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/informal_voting/division.htm
  - XorNot 10y ago
    You're not compelled to choose. You're compelled to cast a ballot. Which can express disapproval for all choices.
    - bsbechtel 10y ago
      Then what's the point? What value does that add besides wasting the voter and the vote counter's time?
      - jhasse 10y ago
        That everyone's time get wasted. You don't have a disadvantage when you decide to actually vote.
        bsbechtel 10y ago
        I should also add you aren't liable to be punished by your government for not voting.
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    Every ballot for selecting representatives that I'm aware of has a write-in option, which renders the philosophical concern moot.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
- specialist 10y ago
  Not defending the USA's crazy elections, but our ballots are often a great deal more complicated. My jurisdiction regularly has 30 items (races, referendum, initiatives, etc) spanning federal, state, county, and local stuff. TLDR: Greater direct democracy, we vote on everything.
tgb 10y ago
You can volunteer to help if you're eligible to vote!
- captncraig 10y ago
  Sadly, not necessarily in any meaningful way. I am working my local precinct. We verify that the count on the machines matches the count in the book at the end of the day, but we have no way to know if the machine flipped votes at all. The machines have a paper receipt, but it is sealed without ever being looked at. Presumably in a contested election they would look at the paper, but there is absolutely no way for an interested party to audit the paper record after the fact to check the machine counts. The legislature declared the paper is to remain sealed and then incinerated after the election is certified.
tbrownaw 10y ago
Good thing every election in the USA has a full and public counting of all ballots cast. Not any more. Back when we all used actual real paper ballots, sure, but the new electronic voting machines don't allow for that.
- tptacek 10y ago
  The electronic voting machines we use in Cook County generate a paper ballot you can inspect under glass before you cast the ballot.
  - pdkl95 10y ago
    Cook County is wasting a lot of money on expensive pencils.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      P. sure we don't want to cast ballots in pencil.
      - spatulon 10y ago
        Polling stations in the UK always provide pencils, and this caused a panic during the EU referendum amongst some Leave supporters, who were worried about their votes being changed. Those people brought their own pens, but that kind of paranoia was widely mocked. cf. Black Mirror writer Charlie Brooker: https://twitter.com/charltonbrooker/status/745921556476473345 https://twitter.com/charltonbrooker/status/74592155647647334...
        tptacek 10y ago
        I can sort of see how one can rationally object to electronic voting machines, but not to pencil-marked ballots. But it's a bit of a stretch.
    - heartbreak 10y ago
      Cook County is spending a lot of money on accessible pencils.

Good thing every election in the USA has a full and public counting of all ballots cast.

by rmah 10y ago

Good thing every election in the USA has a full and public counting of all ballots cast.

The US excessive use of automated vote counting machines does not inspire confidence. Australia has a total hand count with machine verification (if they disagree the hand count is redone) and party observers. Combined with mandatory voting I have total confidence in our system as one of the best in the world.

bsbechtel 10y ago
Mandatory voting is common in many places outside of the US, but I feel like it's something that can lead down a dangerous path. You shouldn't be compelled to choose a leader if you disapprove of the choices, I think that's a freedom I think everyone deserves.
- wastedhours 10y ago
  In mandatory voting systems do you have to actually vote? Or just turn up and submit a ballot paper, whether filled in, empty or spoiled?
  - smspillaz 10y ago
    A ballot paper that doesn't clearly indicate preference order or identifies the voter is counted as "informal" and removed from the pool [0]. I don't believe it is an offence to vote informally but even if it was the anonyminity of the ballot woult make it impossible to enforce. In the last Federal Election the overall informal vote share was about 5.92%. In some electorates it was above 10% [1]. The AEC doesn't distinguish between votes that were intentionally invalid and votes that were unintentionally invalid. I used to work as an electoral officer and in my experience the latter usually far outweighed the former. I saw very few if any ballots that were totally blank, about 10-15 where the person tried to make a statement of some sort and the rest were people who did not understand the instructions and number every box. As far as I can tell, elections in Australia are seen as something you don't really ignore despite your individual disdain for politics. [0] http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/informal_voting/ http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/informal_voting/ [1] http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/informal_voting/division.htm http://www.aec.gov.au/voting/informal_voting/division.htm
- XorNot 10y ago
  You're not compelled to choose. You're compelled to cast a ballot. Which can express disapproval for all choices.
  - bsbechtel 10y ago
    Then what's the point? What value does that add besides wasting the voter and the vote counter's time?
    - jhasse 10y ago
      That everyone's time get wasted. You don't have a disadvantage when you decide to actually vote.
      - bsbechtel 10y ago
        I should also add you aren't liable to be punished by your government for not voting.
- Karunamon 10y ago
  Every ballot for selecting representatives that I'm aware of has a write-in option, which renders the philosophical concern moot.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
specialist 10y ago
Not defending the USA's crazy elections, but our ballots are often a great deal more complicated. My jurisdiction regularly has 30 items (races, referendum, initiatives, etc) spanning federal, state, county, and local stuff. TLDR: Greater direct democracy, we vote on everything.

tgb 10y ago

You can volunteer to help if you're eligible to vote!

captncraig 10y ago
Sadly, not necessarily in any meaningful way. I am working my local precinct. We verify that the count on the machines matches the count in the book at the end of the day, but we have no way to know if the machine flipped votes at all. The machines have a paper receipt, but it is sealed without ever being looked at. Presumably in a contested election they would look at the paper, but there is absolutely no way for an interested party to audit the paper record after the fact to check the machine counts. The legislature declared the paper is to remain sealed and then incinerated after the election is certified.

tbrownaw 10y ago

Good thing every election in the USA has a full and public counting of all ballots cast. Not any more. Back when we all used actual real paper ballots, sure, but the new electronic voting machines don't allow for that.

tptacek 10y ago
The electronic voting machines we use in Cook County generate a paper ballot you can inspect under glass before you cast the ballot.
- pdkl95 10y ago
  Cook County is wasting a lot of money on expensive pencils.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    P. sure we don't want to cast ballots in pencil.
    - spatulon 10y ago
      Polling stations in the UK always provide pencils, and this caused a panic during the EU referendum amongst some Leave supporters, who were worried about their votes being changed. Those people brought their own pens, but that kind of paranoia was widely mocked. cf. Black Mirror writer Charlie Brooker: https://twitter.com/charltonbrooker/status/745921556476473345 https://twitter.com/charltonbrooker/status/74592155647647334...
      - tptacek 10y ago
        I can sort of see how one can rationally object to electronic voting machines, but not to pencil-marked ballots. But it's a bit of a stretch.
  - heartbreak 10y ago
    Cook County is spending a lot of money on accessible pencils.