4 ms·

I think the article makes a valid point but it can't get past Americanisms like "noon" or "4 p.m." If people were to adapt UTC, those would be 12:00 and 16:00

I think the article makes a valid point but it can't get past Americanisms like "noon" or "4 p.m." If people were to adapt UTC, those would be 12:00 and 16:00 respectively. And that just reinforces the main point, that the numbers are largely arbitrary -- but descriptions like "after mid-day" (p.m.) aren't.

grzm 10y ago
Americanisms like "noon" or "4 p.m." Huh. I had never thought of these as Americanisms (though being from the States I might say that, right?) I've lived abroad in a country that uses a 24-hour clock for more official uses, and 12-hour clocks for more informal, spoken uses, including the use of the concept of "noon". Given my small sample size, I looked at Wikipedia to see how time is referenced in other countries. I was surprised to see that the first five countries I looked at all have mixed usage of 24-hour and 12-hour (except for Thailand, which has a 6-hour clock). Both the 12-hour and 24-hour notations are used in the United Kingdom. The 12-hour notation is still widely used in ordinary life, written communication and displays, and continues to be used in spoken language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_the_... Turkey uses the 24-hour clock system. In informal speech, however, the 12-hour clock is more commonly used. When speaking in the 12-hour system, the words such as "sabah" (morning), "akşam" (evening) or "gece" (night) are generally used before telling the time to clarify whether it is a.m. or p.m. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Turk... In Thailand, official time is indicated in 24-hour clock system; however, a six-hour clock system is also used, especially in spoken language. It divides the day into four six-hour periods, with additional words added to make the night-morning-afternoon-evening distinction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Thailand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Thai... In spoken Swedish however, the 12-hour clock is much more common. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Swed... In common spoken language, times are given in 12-hour clock, and those between 1 and 11 are assumed to be post meridiem, past noon, if not otherwise noted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Spai... I haven't done an exhaustive search through the rest, but this does strongly suggest that these are not only Americanisms. If I'm missing something, or misinterpreting what you're saying (which wouldn't be the first time :) please let me know and clarify. As for the numbers being arbitrary, I agree. There is a utility to the choice of 24 hours in a day. That doesn't get around the behavior of humans, where our own biology follows the sun. We'll for the most part be awake when the sun is up, likely be active in community during the middle of the day, at home in the morning and evening. In a global world, we need some way to coordinate with people living at different longitudes, especially for synchronous tasks. Is there a significant difference between needing to know that working hours is from 9:00 and 17:00 in London and from 4:00 and 12:00 in New York, and looking up the time difference between London and New York is 5 hours? Six of one, half-dozen of the other, seems to me. We'll still need some way general convention locally as well. It'd be interesting to see what the business hours are (at a per-business level, perhaps) in relation to the time zone and nearness to time zone borders, and see if there are any trends for businesses compensating based on what the time zone is for the majority of the local population. There'd still need to be some convention for locales. With a limited number of time zones, that decision and coordination is taken care of. Maybe I'm approaching this wrong, but so far what I've read hasn't convinced me that getting rid of time zones does anything more than shift the issue elsewhere. Given that it makes sense to some people, I'm open to hearing more. While I might not agree with some opinions, I generally want to be able to understand how people come to them. Thanks for reading!
- codesnik 10y ago
  12pm before 1pm is particulary maddening (says Russian, and we do use 12 hour clock in informal communication)
mancerayder 10y ago
I think the article makes a valid point but it can't get past Americanisms like "noon" or "4 p.m." Americanisms? Noon in French == "midi" and in Spanish == "mediodia". I'm guessing you're British? I'm pretty sure people say that there in the UK, as well. The sentiment that 24H time is less confusing to express than 12, I do sympathize with.

grzm 10y ago

Americanisms like "noon" or "4 p.m." Huh. I had never thought of these as Americanisms (though being from the States I might say that, right?) I've lived abroad in a country that uses a 24-hour clock for more official uses, and 12-hour clocks for more informal, spoken uses, including the use of the concept of "noon". Given my small sample size, I looked at Wikipedia to see how time is referenced in other countries. I was surprised to see that the first five countries I looked at all have mixed usage of 24-hour and 12-hour (except for Thailand, which has a 6-hour clock). Both the 12-hour and 24-hour notations are used in the United Kingdom. The 12-hour notation is still widely used in ordinary life, written communication and displays, and continues to be used in spoken language. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_the_... Turkey uses the 24-hour clock system. In informal speech, however, the 12-hour clock is more commonly used. When speaking in the 12-hour system, the words such as "sabah" (morning), "akşam" (evening) or "gece" (night) are generally used before telling the time to clarify whether it is a.m. or p.m. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Turkey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Turk... In Thailand, official time is indicated in 24-hour clock system; however, a six-hour clock system is also used, especially in spoken language. It divides the day into four six-hour periods, with additional words added to make the night-morning-afternoon-evening distinction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Thailand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Thai... In spoken Swedish however, the 12-hour clock is much more common. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Swed... In common spoken language, times are given in 12-hour clock, and those between 1 and 11 are assumed to be post meridiem, past noon, if not otherwise noted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_and_time_notation_in_Spai... I haven't done an exhaustive search through the rest, but this does strongly suggest that these are not only Americanisms. If I'm missing something, or misinterpreting what you're saying (which wouldn't be the first time :) please let me know and clarify. As for the numbers being arbitrary, I agree. There is a utility to the choice of 24 hours in a day. That doesn't get around the behavior of humans, where our own biology follows the sun. We'll for the most part be awake when the sun is up, likely be active in community during the middle of the day, at home in the morning and evening. In a global world, we need some way to coordinate with people living at different longitudes, especially for synchronous tasks. Is there a significant difference between needing to know that working hours is from 9:00 and 17:00 in London and from 4:00 and 12:00 in New York, and looking up the time difference between London and New York is 5 hours? Six of one, half-dozen of the other, seems to me. We'll still need some way general convention locally as well. It'd be interesting to see what the business hours are (at a per-business level, perhaps) in relation to the time zone and nearness to time zone borders, and see if there are any trends for businesses compensating based on what the time zone is for the majority of the local population. There'd still need to be some convention for locales. With a limited number of time zones, that decision and coordination is taken care of. Maybe I'm approaching this wrong, but so far what I've read hasn't convinced me that getting rid of time zones does anything more than shift the issue elsewhere. Given that it makes sense to some people, I'm open to hearing more. While I might not agree with some opinions, I generally want to be able to understand how people come to them. Thanks for reading!

codesnik 10y ago
12pm before 1pm is particulary maddening (says Russian, and we do use 12 hour clock in informal communication)

mancerayder 10y ago

I think the article makes a valid point but it can't get past Americanisms like "noon" or "4 p.m." Americanisms? Noon in French == "midi" and in Spanish == "mediodia". I'm guessing you're British? I'm pretty sure people say that there in the UK, as well. The sentiment that 24H time is less confusing to express than 12, I do sympathize with.