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The Bolt will be available nationwide before the Model 3 is delivered to a single customer. The main problem GM has is that Tesla has built a proprietary charg

by ebbv 10y ago

The Bolt will be available nationwide before the Model 3 is delivered to a single customer. The main problem GM has is that Tesla has built a proprietary charging network that the Bolt doesn't have. So even with 230 miles of range you still can't just get up and do a road trip in the Bolt as easily as you will be able to in a Model 3.

Waterluvian 10y ago
If we had proprietary gas stations today, it would be just insane. This seems like something the government needs to regulate if the companies can't do it themselves.
- codeulike 10y ago
  Maybe. It's not quite as simple as pumping liquid into a tank. There's all kinds of tech needed for high speed charging, both inside the car and outside. Standards will organically appear over time perhaps.
  - Waterluvian 10y ago
    You're right. Which suggests its even more important to regulate a standard. Having a period of competing standards will delay the proliferation of electric vehicles by complicating the charging story.
    - codeulike 10y ago
      But on the other hand regulating will hold back innovation
      - dangrossman 10y ago
        The standard's already set. BMW, Volkswagen, GM, Daimler, Ford, Fiat, Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Maserati, Renault, Audi, Volvo, Porsche and Hyundai are already onboard with the Combined Charging System. It's governed by several international standards, and a standards committee that includes all those companies. Several cars from those makers already have the port (including the Bolt), and hundreds of CCS chargers have already been built in the US. This discussion is moot.
        codeulike 10y ago
        But what if you have a bigger capacity battery (like a Tesla) and hence need to charge even faster than CCS allows (like superchargers do)? Edit: also, all those car companies combined sell fewer electric cars than Tesla. Why do they get to set the standard?
        dangrossman 10y ago
        > need to charge even faster than CCS allows (like superchargers do)? CCS can charge just as fast, and faster, than Superchargers. That's not a limited by the shape of a plug or a communication protocol. CCS has been demonstrated at hundreds of kW already. > also, all those car companies combined sell fewer electric cars than Tesla. Why do they get to set the standard? So far this year, ~120K plug-in cars have been sold in the US, and Tesla only sold ~35K of them. > the world's second biggest seller of evs is Nissan, who use Chademo. Why choose CCS over Chademo? Because it's the better standard. It's just a J1772 plug, with two pins added. That means the car needs just one charging port no matter what you're plugging into it. CHAdeMO is a separate, very large connector for DC that has to be alongside the J1772 plug for AC. Given Renault recently joined the CCS group, and the Renault-Nissan CEO recently said Renault's EV tech would be coming to Nissan, CHAdeMO is likely going away in the US. Nissan was the last holdout once Hyundai switched over. -- P.S. Tesla joined CharIn, the group that sets the CCS standards, in March. They see where things are going too. http://www.charinev.org/members/our-members/ http://www.charinev.org/members/our-members/
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
- j2bax 10y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla opened up their network to other vehicles for a fee. Obviously that might require some retooling but according to Musk, he wants us to move away from ICE vehicles no matter what it takes or who gets us there. If this is true he has to know that a proprietary charging network is really not acceptable.
  - dangrossman 10y ago
    Tesla's network already has hours-long lines at popular locations. They're going to be increasing the number of Tesla vehicles on the road by an order of magnitude very soon. The window of opportunity for selling access to their charging network has already closed.
codeulike 10y ago
In Europe there's a decent number of CCS chargers around that would make the bolt reasonably feasible for long range. (But yeah still not as good as Tesla)
_ph_ 10y ago
Tesla has offered all electrical car companies access to the supercharger network - I am not aware of any who accepted the offer. Only now there seems to be an European standard for DC high power charging, but there are few charging stations (and except the Tesla cars) no cars which can deliver/take more than 50kW.
- dangrossman 10y ago
  Combined Charging System, aka SAE Combo? Not only are there more CCS stations in the US than Supercharger locations already, but CCS isn't just European. Every manufacturer of EVs in NA at least is already on board, save Tesla and Nissan. Renault just joined the consortium, so Nissan is likely to follow. BMW, Volkswagen, GM, Daimler, Ford, Fiat, Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Maserati, Renault, Audi, Volvo, Porsche and Hyundai are all on board with CCS for charging, and demonstrations have already been done of charging rates exceeding Tesla's Superchargers. As for Tesla's "offer" to share: that would have amounted to a Tesla tax on every EV sold. There was little chance their competitors would take them up on that. And now that the ratio of cars to chargers is about to explode while they already see lines at popular travel times, the window of opportunity to sell access to their charging network has closed.

by ebbv 10y ago

Waterluvian 10y ago

If we had proprietary gas stations today, it would be just insane. This seems like something the government needs to regulate if the companies can't do it themselves.

codeulike 10y ago
Maybe. It's not quite as simple as pumping liquid into a tank. There's all kinds of tech needed for high speed charging, both inside the car and outside. Standards will organically appear over time perhaps.
- Waterluvian 10y ago
  You're right. Which suggests its even more important to regulate a standard. Having a period of competing standards will delay the proliferation of electric vehicles by complicating the charging story.
  - codeulike 10y ago
    But on the other hand regulating will hold back innovation
    - dangrossman 10y ago
      The standard's already set. BMW, Volkswagen, GM, Daimler, Ford, Fiat, Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Maserati, Renault, Audi, Volvo, Porsche and Hyundai are already onboard with the Combined Charging System. It's governed by several international standards, and a standards committee that includes all those companies. Several cars from those makers already have the port (including the Bolt), and hundreds of CCS chargers have already been built in the US. This discussion is moot.
      - codeulike 10y ago
        But what if you have a bigger capacity battery (like a Tesla) and hence need to charge even faster than CCS allows (like superchargers do)? Edit: also, all those car companies combined sell fewer electric cars than Tesla. Why do they get to set the standard?
        dangrossman 10y ago
        > need to charge even faster than CCS allows (like superchargers do)? CCS can charge just as fast, and faster, than Superchargers. That's not a limited by the shape of a plug or a communication protocol. CCS has been demonstrated at hundreds of kW already. > also, all those car companies combined sell fewer electric cars than Tesla. Why do they get to set the standard? So far this year, ~120K plug-in cars have been sold in the US, and Tesla only sold ~35K of them. > the world's second biggest seller of evs is Nissan, who use Chademo. Why choose CCS over Chademo? Because it's the better standard. It's just a J1772 plug, with two pins added. That means the car needs just one charging port no matter what you're plugging into it. CHAdeMO is a separate, very large connector for DC that has to be alongside the J1772 plug for AC. Given Renault recently joined the CCS group, and the Renault-Nissan CEO recently said Renault's EV tech would be coming to Nissan, CHAdeMO is likely going away in the US. Nissan was the last holdout once Hyundai switched over. -- P.S. Tesla joined CharIn, the group that sets the CCS standards, in March. They see where things are going too. http://www.charinev.org/members/our-members/ http://www.charinev.org/members/our-members/
        deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
j2bax 10y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla opened up their network to other vehicles for a fee. Obviously that might require some retooling but according to Musk, he wants us to move away from ICE vehicles no matter what it takes or who gets us there. If this is true he has to know that a proprietary charging network is really not acceptable.
- dangrossman 10y ago
  Tesla's network already has hours-long lines at popular locations. They're going to be increasing the number of Tesla vehicles on the road by an order of magnitude very soon. The window of opportunity for selling access to their charging network has already closed.

codeulike 10y ago

In Europe there's a decent number of CCS chargers around that would make the bolt reasonably feasible for long range. (But yeah still not as good as Tesla)

_ph_ 10y ago

Tesla has offered all electrical car companies access to the supercharger network - I am not aware of any who accepted the offer. Only now there seems to be an European standard for DC high power charging, but there are few charging stations (and except the Tesla cars) no cars which can deliver/take more than 50kW.

dangrossman 10y ago
Combined Charging System, aka SAE Combo? Not only are there more CCS stations in the US than Supercharger locations already, but CCS isn't just European. Every manufacturer of EVs in NA at least is already on board, save Tesla and Nissan. Renault just joined the consortium, so Nissan is likely to follow. BMW, Volkswagen, GM, Daimler, Ford, Fiat, Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Maserati, Renault, Audi, Volvo, Porsche and Hyundai are all on board with CCS for charging, and demonstrations have already been done of charging rates exceeding Tesla's Superchargers. As for Tesla's "offer" to share: that would have amounted to a Tesla tax on every EV sold. There was little chance their competitors would take them up on that. And now that the ratio of cars to chargers is about to explode while they already see lines at popular travel times, the window of opportunity to sell access to their charging network has closed.