5 ms·

I wonder why don't more places do this. I mean surely the actual carriage of the train can be reused, but with just the engine refitted.

by jg23 10y ago

adrianN 10y ago
Typically you'd also have to refit the train control system that communicates with the trackside equipment and the odometry system. On older trains you might run into problems because the brakes don't prevent locking and mess up the odometry so you'd have to refit those as well. Nevertheless, there are plenty of really old trains still running. Service times of fourty years and more are the rule, not the exception.
- majewsky 10y ago
  > Service times of fourty years and more are the rule, not the exception. Is this different between trains and trams? In Dresden, our rolling stock of trams is between 10 and 20 years old (with half a dozen older trains reserved to cover high load situations), and the tram operator is already loudly thinking about ordering the next generation.
  - ferongr 10y ago
    Lighter vehicles tend to have less durable construction. When it comes to low floor trams/railcars, the lack of space is another engineering problem. Plus, with a high-floor vehicle, you have lots of space during rebuilds to install newer power electronics and auxiliary equipment, in order to extend the service life. Regular heavy-rail, high floor metro EMUs can go for over half a century.
Symbiote 10y ago
Rust and metal fatigue will wear out the chassis eventually. If repairs become too frequent, fewer trains are available for use on any given day, which means not all services can be run. Old carriages might not meet modern expectations of crashworthiness or fire resistance.
- emp_zealoth 10y ago
  Also noise and ride comfort. In Warsaw we have some really old Soviet subway cars and a mix of western/homegrown ones While the bumpy ride is just a nuissance, the noise of those old junkers probably should require everyone to wear heavy hearing protection, if one had to adhere to workplace regulation. When their crooked boogies start to screech and grind in turns, the noise is physically painful
- majewsky 10y ago
  > Old carriages might not meet modern expectations of crashworthiness or fire resistance. Since we're talking about Berlin, the new airport had a similar problem: Because of all the delays and problems, the construction permit expired. And it could not just be reissued for the same plans because safety and energy conservation regulations had become tighter in the meantime. As far as I know, parliament extended the construction permit manually to avoid the replanning costs.
woodpanel 10y ago
Absolutely. In many places though, there isn't enough old-train stock left over. NYC did this http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhpj7eRuPN1qzt7h7o1_1280.jpg http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhpj7eRuPN1qzt7h7o1_1280.j...
askvictor 10y ago
Melbourne did this a few years back; they bought back (for a princely sum) some carriages sold for a pittance a few years earlier to cover a shortage in rolling stock.
smoyer 10y ago
The Market Street Railway [0] in San Francisco has a fleet of restored streetcars from around the world that run regular service on two trolley lines. [0] http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/ http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/
tangus 10y ago
Until recently, Buenos Aires' A line still used original rolling stock from the 1910's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires_Underground#National_patrimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires_Underground#Natio... (photo: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Coche_La_Brugeoise_121.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Coche_La... )
afterburner 10y ago
I wonder if these trains have air conditioning. Berlin might not need it, but if you had a subway train without air conditioning in NYC for example, the passengers would boil. So that might explain it.
- tormeh 10y ago
  They don't. I wouldn't say that people boil in the Berlin subway, but 40 degrees Celsius is often reached in the underground on hot summer days.
  - afterburner 10y ago
    Being stuck in 40C in an enclosed space, with humidity... is crazy.
lewiscollard 10y ago
> I mean surely the actual carriage of the train can be reused, but with just the engine refitted. Vivarail (http://www.vivarail.co.uk/ http://www.vivarail.co.uk/) are doing almost exactly this in the UK with late-70s London Underground trains, fitting modern electronics and Ford truck engines as generators for the electric motors. I think it's a solid idea.
- takno 10y ago
  Have Vivarail managed to find any customers yet? From an engineering point of view what they knocked together looked quite good, but for the UK market right now it's just a disaster. You can't spend billions upgrading London trains, and then suggest knocking together some franken-pacer out of London's scraps to replace the terrible units in the north and west-country.

I wonder why don't more places do this. I mean surely the actual carriage of the train can be reused, but with just the engine refitted.

by jg23 10y ago

I wonder why don't more places do this. I mean surely the actual carriage of the train can be reused, but with just the engine refitted.

adrianN 10y ago

Typically you'd also have to refit the train control system that communicates with the trackside equipment and the odometry system. On older trains you might run into problems because the brakes don't prevent locking and mess up the odometry so you'd have to refit those as well. Nevertheless, there are plenty of really old trains still running. Service times of fourty years and more are the rule, not the exception.

majewsky 10y ago
> Service times of fourty years and more are the rule, not the exception. Is this different between trains and trams? In Dresden, our rolling stock of trams is between 10 and 20 years old (with half a dozen older trains reserved to cover high load situations), and the tram operator is already loudly thinking about ordering the next generation.
- ferongr 10y ago
  Lighter vehicles tend to have less durable construction. When it comes to low floor trams/railcars, the lack of space is another engineering problem. Plus, with a high-floor vehicle, you have lots of space during rebuilds to install newer power electronics and auxiliary equipment, in order to extend the service life. Regular heavy-rail, high floor metro EMUs can go for over half a century.

Symbiote 10y ago

Rust and metal fatigue will wear out the chassis eventually. If repairs become too frequent, fewer trains are available for use on any given day, which means not all services can be run. Old carriages might not meet modern expectations of crashworthiness or fire resistance.

emp_zealoth 10y ago
Also noise and ride comfort. In Warsaw we have some really old Soviet subway cars and a mix of western/homegrown ones While the bumpy ride is just a nuissance, the noise of those old junkers probably should require everyone to wear heavy hearing protection, if one had to adhere to workplace regulation. When their crooked boogies start to screech and grind in turns, the noise is physically painful
majewsky 10y ago
> Old carriages might not meet modern expectations of crashworthiness or fire resistance. Since we're talking about Berlin, the new airport had a similar problem: Because of all the delays and problems, the construction permit expired. And it could not just be reissued for the same plans because safety and energy conservation regulations had become tighter in the meantime. As far as I know, parliament extended the construction permit manually to avoid the replanning costs.

woodpanel 10y ago

Absolutely. In many places though, there isn't enough old-train stock left over. NYC did this http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhpj7eRuPN1qzt7h7o1_1280.jpg http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhpj7eRuPN1qzt7h7o1_1280.j...

askvictor 10y ago

Melbourne did this a few years back; they bought back (for a princely sum) some carriages sold for a pittance a few years earlier to cover a shortage in rolling stock.

smoyer 10y ago

The Market Street Railway [0] in San Francisco has a fleet of restored streetcars from around the world that run regular service on two trolley lines. [0] http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/ http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/

tangus 10y ago

Until recently, Buenos Aires' A line still used original rolling stock from the 1910's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires_Underground#National_patrimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buenos_Aires_Underground#Natio... (photo: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Coche_La_Brugeoise_121.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Coche_La... )

afterburner 10y ago

I wonder if these trains have air conditioning. Berlin might not need it, but if you had a subway train without air conditioning in NYC for example, the passengers would boil. So that might explain it.

tormeh 10y ago
They don't. I wouldn't say that people boil in the Berlin subway, but 40 degrees Celsius is often reached in the underground on hot summer days.
- afterburner 10y ago
  Being stuck in 40C in an enclosed space, with humidity... is crazy.

lewiscollard 10y ago

> I mean surely the actual carriage of the train can be reused, but with just the engine refitted. Vivarail (http://www.vivarail.co.uk/ http://www.vivarail.co.uk/) are doing almost exactly this in the UK with late-70s London Underground trains, fitting modern electronics and Ford truck engines as generators for the electric motors. I think it's a solid idea.

takno 10y ago
Have Vivarail managed to find any customers yet? From an engineering point of view what they knocked together looked quite good, but for the UK market right now it's just a disaster. You can't spend billions upgrading London trains, and then suggest knocking together some franken-pacer out of London's scraps to replace the terrible units in the north and west-country.