16 ms·

So... just about the touchbar and not this particular project: The touchbar is on the keyboard, almost perpendicularly (and many times at an obtuse angle) oppo

So... just about the touchbar and not this particular project: The touchbar is on the keyboard, almost perpendicularly (and many times at an obtuse angle) opposite to the screen. So I have to move my head up and down all the time. This is not an issue with the regular keyboard because it has physical buttons which don't change their meaning, so I have memorized the layout and I can use my muscle memory. To avoid moving human head up and down, maybe they should have put it adjacent below or above the screen, you know. And while they were at it, maybe they should have just merged it into the screen seamlessly... Oh, and while they were at that, they could make the entire screen a touch-screen instead of just a small bar. Just imagine... a touchscreen laptop. Now that would be amazing, right?

hanief 10y ago
Is your premise correct though? Will you need to move your head up and down? Isn't the touch bar will be in your field of vision? Even if your premise is true, is it better to move your head up and down or to move your hands forward and backward to reach the touch screen?
- BinaryIdiot 10y ago
  > Is your premise correct though? Will you need to move your head up and down? Isn't the touch bar will be in your field of vision? Considering zero part of my keyboard is in my field of vision I'd say yes I'd have to move my head up and down. I haven't had a chance to play with the new MacBook Pro yet but it seems like a reasonable assumption. > Even if your premise is true, is it better to move your head up and down or to move your hands forward and backward to reach the touch screen? It's actually two different use cases here. A touch screen helps with touch type of controls. So precision zooming and scrolling is kinda awesome on one (though scrolling is weak with the nice touchpad). The touchbar is meant to be more utility like a row of function keys. I don't think it's entirely fair to directly compare the two. For instance moving it to the bottom of the screen instead of the top of the keyboard turns it from easy to access touch keys to more informational. At least in my opinion.
  - b1daly 10y ago
    I think the touch pad is going to be one of those things people will just have to try, and it might turn out to be an awesome addition to the input tools at hand. Or it might one of those things that sounded good in theory, but is just a pain in practice. One thing to consider is that things like editing video are already mouse centric, and the keyboard shortcuts augment the interface. You don't leave your hands in home position. If you're working on the laptop, using the trackpad, you're already in the mode where you are going back and forth, and your hands need to move around. When using a mouse, trackball, etc, you can get into workflows based on having one hand operating the mouse, while the other does the keyboard shortcuts. So there could be very interesting uses with two hands. What makes it not so compelling to me, is that I do serious work with my laptop closed, and a big monitor (I'm music producer/audio engineer). The amount of information you need to get on the screen at once, if possible, for media authoring applications, requires a relatively rigid focus on the screen. Having my head hunched over a little laptop display is not going to work for extended sessions. The problem of creating physical interfaces that work well with the screen relates to the abstraction that is involved in GUIs. You have to keep steady focus on the screen, keeping track of the mouse, and what you are doing. You enter kind of a trance, pretty quickly, where you have accepted a two dimensional representation of a complex structure, and are operating within its framework. This divorces the metaphorical actions of the user in the GUI, which is what we care about, from the physical actions of the body. For a new user interface to work, it will have to be incorporated into this metaphorical framework the user operates in. If it deviates to much from the abstractions of the interface, it breaks the trance required to get into the flow, and will simply not be used. I suspect one of the issues will be if users can actually quickly look down to see what they are touching, or perceive enough with peripheral vision, without losing track of where they are on the screen. It's a reasonable location for the touch bar. As the user gets used to where controls on the touch bar are located, the visual cues might be enough to consistently target the virtual control. It could also be really helpful for keyboard commands that have a lot of modifiers, and which you don't use much. They can be real handy at times, but the trouble of looking up the key binding in the heat of the moment prevents the habit from getting built up.
  - kyberias 10y ago
    > Considering zero part of my keyboard is in my field of vision Zero? Is that even possible? When using a laptop, it's impossible to look at the display without being able to also look at the keyboard (and touchbar) by just moving your _eyes_. You don't have to move your head. I think your assumption is not reasonable at all.
grzm 10y ago
"So I have to move my head up and down all the time." I believe that for the use-case of Touch Bar as slider, it has similar behavioral characteristics as a trackpad. Do you use a trackpad? Or a mouse? Do you find yourself moving your eyes back and forth between the screen and the trackpad or mouse? Honest questions. I'm not trying to be snarky :) As for custom keys, I think this has more in common with chording/key commands. There is the distinction that there aren't physical keys, but in the case of key commands, I know I'm not thinking, say, ⌘-Z when I undo. I'm just thinking Undo. And many key commands are application dependent. As I get used to whatever custom keys I've got programmed or are made available by an application, there'll be some period of acclimation, and then it'll just become habit. Perhaps to offset the lack of physical gaps between keys there will be larger target areas on the Touch Bar. What do you think? Are these comparisons useful? If not, what are their limitations? I do think the Touch Bar would benefit from some kind of haptic response, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the direction it goes. I also wouldn't be surprised if at some time in the future there is a touch screen for Macs. That doesn't mean that Apple is ready to release such a MacBook yet (for whatever reason), or that the Touch Bar isn't a valid feature. And while it's generating a lot of heat at this point, until there are a lot more hands-on (cough) reports, I think it's prudent to remember a lot of this is speculation, both for and against. Edit to add: If you choose to down vote, please take the time to reply with a comment as well in the interest of communication. Thanks!
- qyv 10y ago
  Trackpad, mouse, etc, is not a good comparable. Unlike a trackpad or mouse, the touch bar is a video display. Being a display implies visual interaction, and the lack of physical feedback will make 'touch typing' the touch bar difficult.
  - grzm 10y ago
    Yes, it has a display component. I don't see how that implies it must always be used by looking at it. Keys (usually) have labels on them, yet many people don't use the labels as reference once they're accustomed to touch typing. Learning key commands can be a chore, requiring use of the manual or discovery through menus. Do you remember cards provided with some applications that included lists of command key commands? The Touch Bar makes things like that instantly available. And once you learn where they are, you don't need to be looking at them. There are probably going to be some interesting interaction possibilities where we're going to want use the Touch Bar in a more visual way. One I can think of is the autocomplete demo during the Hello Again event. I personally think autocomplete would be better served keyboard alone in a manner similar to how the spelling and grammar suggestions work, rather than through the Touch Bar, but again, that's not having used it. I completely agree that it is a new input device. Just not completely new. Some things are going to carry over from the keyboard, the trackpad, and the touch screen. And I agree the lack of physical response may take some getting used to. As I mentioned, I think we'll see improvements on this in the future.
idlewords 10y ago
It should be legal to murder someone for touching your laptop screen. I can't think of a bigger co-worker foul than that. Making a screen that people are supposed to touch would be an unthinkable crime.
- an_d_rew 10y ago
  Our Dell laptops at work all have touch screens. Running Windows 7. (twitch)
- mirkules 10y ago
  Smartphones and tablets undid years of training on my coworkers to stop touching my screen. I just gave up and now always keep a microfiber wipe or rag next to my screen.
  - squidi 10y ago
    How can we explain these people that like to point at a laptop screen with a pen? I'm mortified every time I see it.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
- Esau 10y ago
  Hear hear. This is one of the reasons why I am not even vaguely interested in a touchscreen laptop.
- bcoates 10y ago
  It works the opposite way; by having a touch laptop touchers have this hilarious public shaming moment when the UI recoils away from them pawing at my display. What's particularly weird are involuntary touchers who are physically incapable of gesturing at something on the laptop screen without touching it. Watching them lock up as they attempt to control their arms while talking is amazing, it's like they're learning to ride a bike for the first time.
- 10y ago
StephenConnell 10y ago
Ha, well said! I have grown to love the touch screen on my Chromebook pixel. Felt awkward to reach at first, but a non touch screen now feels really awkward. Not that the touch screen replaces all interaction, there are some things that are faster on the keyboard, touch pad, or touch screen. That said, touching other people's screens is not polite. With regards to the touch bar, seems like you could use software in combination with the existing touchpad and screen to do something similar. Reserve the top edge of the touch pad, on touch a menu pops up, slide to select or something...
- Theodores 10y ago
  Same experience with my Pixel. Also, in some situations such as when training someone, being able to have them use the keyboard/track pad and then being able to move things forward by touching/zooming the screen when they get stuck is productive and doesn't interrupt flow.
TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
Good observation. Look at the image[1] on the Apple website showing off the Touch Bar on the new MacBook Pro. Nobody I know uses their laptop oriented perpendicular to their desk. One good vantage point to view the Touch Bar is standing behind the user looking over the their shoulder. 1. http://i.imgur.com/1iqXNZE.png http://i.imgur.com/1iqXNZE.png
- travv0 10y ago
  Look down at your functions keys. Surely you can read them just fine without being directly over them?
mikek 10y ago
Rest assured that Apple has thought about this a lot more than you have, and this is the solution they came up with. Touching a screen is pretty tiring for your arms; imagine if you had no trackpad but instead had to tap everything on the screen of your laptop. I assure you that very few people touch type the function keys; they will not be missed. The escape key I will miss, but how much I don't know.
- dingaling 10y ago
  > Touching a screen is pretty tiring for your arms Only if you're touching it constantly, without interruption, which is a very unusual use-case. Most instances are a quick tap on a dialogue button and then back to the resting / typing position. Anyhow, extending my arm to touch the screen feels little different to reaching for my Dell 'media keys' ( in the same location as Apple's Touch Bar ); just a slightly different vector. In either case I have to break my home-row poise, but when touching the screen at least I don't have to break my eyes-on-screen-focus whilst my finger comes into view. I like the idea up-thread of an alternative position for the Touch Bar below the screen, usually reserved for a logo which loiters uselessly but subliminally in my peripheral vision.
neotek 10y ago
A touchscreen on a laptop is as much use as tits on a bull, I'm glad Apple chose to do something different.
madeofpalk 10y ago
Steve Jobs, in 2008, on why touchscreen iMacs are bad http://www.technologizer.com/2008/10/14/my-question-with-steve/ http://www.technologizer.com/2008/10/14/my-question-with-ste... Steve Jobs, in 2010, on why touchscreen laptops are bad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeNsqqKadQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeNsqqKadQ4 Jonny Ive, last week, on why touchscreen laptops are bad https://www.cnet.com/special-reports/jony-ive-talks-about-putting-the-apple-touch-on-the-macbook-pro/ https://www.cnet.com/special-reports/jony-ive-talks-about-pu...
- johnhenry 10y ago
  Steve Jobs, in 2003, on why tablets are bad http://thenextweb.com/apple/2013/10/11/hear-steve-jobs-convincingly-dismiss-tablets-10-years-ago/ http://thenextweb.com/apple/2013/10/11/hear-steve-jobs-convi... Apple stood by this conviction until they started selling iPads. It's likely that they will maintain their position against touchscreen laptops only until they can make a reasonable profit selling them. I speculate that the reason for Apple not currently producing them, more than anything else, has to do with the fact that touchscreen laptops would cut into iPad sales.
  - scottmf 10y ago
    That doesn't make sense. Apple has never been afraid to cannibalize a product line.
    - scoot 10y ago
      Apple under Jobs was never afraid to cannibalize a product line.
      - gurkendoktor 10y ago
        Do you think Jobs had already planned to cannibalise the 7" iPad by focusing on 5.5" phones?
  - tudorw 10y ago
    I'm right now using this wacom lower surface with a fullhd antiglare touchscreen in front of me, a 695g 9mm thin device with an all day battery and a backlit keyboard that adapts to my typing style, what am I using?
ozgung 10y ago
> So I have to move my head up and down all the time. No you don't have to. You can simply move your eyes. Also humans have this ability called "peripheral vision". Not to mention using the touchbar is optional. If you want to memorise all the key combinations, you're fine. I think we should stop guessing about a new UI method before we actually try it.
- kuschku 10y ago
  > If you want to memorise all the key combinations, you're fine. So they didn’t remove an entire row of function keys that were used for exactly that purpose?
  - herrkanin 10y ago
    The function keys are still there, you can invoke them by holding down the fn button just as before.
    - kuschku 10y ago
      There’s an F1 key? an F2 key? etc? Compare http://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/8748/as-images.apple.com/is/image/AppleInc/aos/published/images/2/01/2012/macbookpro/2012-macbookpro-gallery4?wid=978&hei=535&fmt=jpeg&qlt=95&op_sharpen=0&resMode=bicub&op_usm=0.5,0.5,0,0&iccEmbed=0&layer=comp&.v=46Skb1 http://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/8748/as-images.apple.... with https://camo.githubusercontent.com/60a3261655b2aca41e04bb32fe6e79c02b8d8dd8/687474703a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f54327864635a672e706e67 https://camo.githubusercontent.com/60a3261655b2aca41e04bb32f... Oh wait, nope, there’s not.
    - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
      But can you feel (without looking) whether you hit just F3, or F3 and F4?
      - pshc 10y ago
        Personally, my F key usage has been so infrequent (besides F5, once upon a time) that I can't reliably touch type them. I suspect most people are the same way, especially as keyboards have miniaturized and removed the 4-clustering.
bjn 10y ago
I was thinking the same thing, but I think that is manageable. The only thing I can't swallow is escluding the escape key as a physical button.
valine 10y ago
I already type on my iPhone without looking at the keys. You don't need tactile feedback to touch type. If you use the though bar in a particular app enough, I imagine muscle memory will help you out.
oliv__ 10y ago
>and while they were at that, they could make the entire screen a touch-screen instead of just a small bar. Just imagine... a touchscreen laptop. Now that would be amazing, right? Ummm..Gravity begs to differ. Adding touch to your laptop's screen is the worse possible thing you could do to it. It just makes zero sense ergonomically: try holding your hand up to your screen for 30s and tell me how that goes.
- saghm 10y ago
  I kind of have trouble imagining needing to use touch controls for a full thirty seconds for them to be useful. I don't even think I keep my hand on my mouse/trackpad for anywhere close to that amount of continuous time
Razengan 10y ago
> a touchscreen laptop. Now that would be amazing, right? No, not without a made-for-touch-from-the-ground-up OS, which neither macOS nor Windows is.
- badestrand 10y ago
  I can confirm. I have a touchscreen laptop and use it only once a week when discussing things with coworkers, because that way they can see more clearly what I do in contrast to using the mouse.

hanief 10y ago

Is your premise correct though? Will you need to move your head up and down? Isn't the touch bar will be in your field of vision? Even if your premise is true, is it better to move your head up and down or to move your hands forward and backward to reach the touch screen?

BinaryIdiot 10y ago
> Is your premise correct though? Will you need to move your head up and down? Isn't the touch bar will be in your field of vision? Considering zero part of my keyboard is in my field of vision I'd say yes I'd have to move my head up and down. I haven't had a chance to play with the new MacBook Pro yet but it seems like a reasonable assumption. > Even if your premise is true, is it better to move your head up and down or to move your hands forward and backward to reach the touch screen? It's actually two different use cases here. A touch screen helps with touch type of controls. So precision zooming and scrolling is kinda awesome on one (though scrolling is weak with the nice touchpad). The touchbar is meant to be more utility like a row of function keys. I don't think it's entirely fair to directly compare the two. For instance moving it to the bottom of the screen instead of the top of the keyboard turns it from easy to access touch keys to more informational. At least in my opinion.
- b1daly 10y ago
  I think the touch pad is going to be one of those things people will just have to try, and it might turn out to be an awesome addition to the input tools at hand. Or it might one of those things that sounded good in theory, but is just a pain in practice. One thing to consider is that things like editing video are already mouse centric, and the keyboard shortcuts augment the interface. You don't leave your hands in home position. If you're working on the laptop, using the trackpad, you're already in the mode where you are going back and forth, and your hands need to move around. When using a mouse, trackball, etc, you can get into workflows based on having one hand operating the mouse, while the other does the keyboard shortcuts. So there could be very interesting uses with two hands. What makes it not so compelling to me, is that I do serious work with my laptop closed, and a big monitor (I'm music producer/audio engineer). The amount of information you need to get on the screen at once, if possible, for media authoring applications, requires a relatively rigid focus on the screen. Having my head hunched over a little laptop display is not going to work for extended sessions. The problem of creating physical interfaces that work well with the screen relates to the abstraction that is involved in GUIs. You have to keep steady focus on the screen, keeping track of the mouse, and what you are doing. You enter kind of a trance, pretty quickly, where you have accepted a two dimensional representation of a complex structure, and are operating within its framework. This divorces the metaphorical actions of the user in the GUI, which is what we care about, from the physical actions of the body. For a new user interface to work, it will have to be incorporated into this metaphorical framework the user operates in. If it deviates to much from the abstractions of the interface, it breaks the trance required to get into the flow, and will simply not be used. I suspect one of the issues will be if users can actually quickly look down to see what they are touching, or perceive enough with peripheral vision, without losing track of where they are on the screen. It's a reasonable location for the touch bar. As the user gets used to where controls on the touch bar are located, the visual cues might be enough to consistently target the virtual control. It could also be really helpful for keyboard commands that have a lot of modifiers, and which you don't use much. They can be real handy at times, but the trouble of looking up the key binding in the heat of the moment prevents the habit from getting built up.
- kyberias 10y ago
  > Considering zero part of my keyboard is in my field of vision Zero? Is that even possible? When using a laptop, it's impossible to look at the display without being able to also look at the keyboard (and touchbar) by just moving your _eyes_. You don't have to move your head. I think your assumption is not reasonable at all.

grzm 10y ago

"So I have to move my head up and down all the time." I believe that for the use-case of Touch Bar as slider, it has similar behavioral characteristics as a trackpad. Do you use a trackpad? Or a mouse? Do you find yourself moving your eyes back and forth between the screen and the trackpad or mouse? Honest questions. I'm not trying to be snarky :) As for custom keys, I think this has more in common with chording/key commands. There is the distinction that there aren't physical keys, but in the case of key commands, I know I'm not thinking, say, ⌘-Z when I undo. I'm just thinking Undo. And many key commands are application dependent. As I get used to whatever custom keys I've got programmed or are made available by an application, there'll be some period of acclimation, and then it'll just become habit. Perhaps to offset the lack of physical gaps between keys there will be larger target areas on the Touch Bar. What do you think? Are these comparisons useful? If not, what are their limitations? I do think the Touch Bar would benefit from some kind of haptic response, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the direction it goes. I also wouldn't be surprised if at some time in the future there is a touch screen for Macs. That doesn't mean that Apple is ready to release such a MacBook yet (for whatever reason), or that the Touch Bar isn't a valid feature. And while it's generating a lot of heat at this point, until there are a lot more hands-on (cough) reports, I think it's prudent to remember a lot of this is speculation, both for and against. Edit to add: If you choose to down vote, please take the time to reply with a comment as well in the interest of communication. Thanks!

qyv 10y ago
Trackpad, mouse, etc, is not a good comparable. Unlike a trackpad or mouse, the touch bar is a video display. Being a display implies visual interaction, and the lack of physical feedback will make 'touch typing' the touch bar difficult.
- grzm 10y ago
  Yes, it has a display component. I don't see how that implies it must always be used by looking at it. Keys (usually) have labels on them, yet many people don't use the labels as reference once they're accustomed to touch typing. Learning key commands can be a chore, requiring use of the manual or discovery through menus. Do you remember cards provided with some applications that included lists of command key commands? The Touch Bar makes things like that instantly available. And once you learn where they are, you don't need to be looking at them. There are probably going to be some interesting interaction possibilities where we're going to want use the Touch Bar in a more visual way. One I can think of is the autocomplete demo during the Hello Again event. I personally think autocomplete would be better served keyboard alone in a manner similar to how the spelling and grammar suggestions work, rather than through the Touch Bar, but again, that's not having used it. I completely agree that it is a new input device. Just not completely new. Some things are going to carry over from the keyboard, the trackpad, and the touch screen. And I agree the lack of physical response may take some getting used to. As I mentioned, I think we'll see improvements on this in the future.

idlewords 10y ago

It should be legal to murder someone for touching your laptop screen. I can't think of a bigger co-worker foul than that. Making a screen that people are supposed to touch would be an unthinkable crime.

an_d_rew 10y ago
Our Dell laptops at work all have touch screens. Running Windows 7. (twitch)
mirkules 10y ago
Smartphones and tablets undid years of training on my coworkers to stop touching my screen. I just gave up and now always keep a microfiber wipe or rag next to my screen.
- squidi 10y ago
  How can we explain these people that like to point at a laptop screen with a pen? I'm mortified every time I see it.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
Esau 10y ago
Hear hear. This is one of the reasons why I am not even vaguely interested in a touchscreen laptop.
bcoates 10y ago
It works the opposite way; by having a touch laptop touchers have this hilarious public shaming moment when the UI recoils away from them pawing at my display. What's particularly weird are involuntary touchers who are physically incapable of gesturing at something on the laptop screen without touching it. Watching them lock up as they attempt to control their arms while talking is amazing, it's like they're learning to ride a bike for the first time.
10y ago

StephenConnell 10y ago

Ha, well said! I have grown to love the touch screen on my Chromebook pixel. Felt awkward to reach at first, but a non touch screen now feels really awkward. Not that the touch screen replaces all interaction, there are some things that are faster on the keyboard, touch pad, or touch screen. That said, touching other people's screens is not polite. With regards to the touch bar, seems like you could use software in combination with the existing touchpad and screen to do something similar. Reserve the top edge of the touch pad, on touch a menu pops up, slide to select or something...

Theodores 10y ago
Same experience with my Pixel. Also, in some situations such as when training someone, being able to have them use the keyboard/track pad and then being able to move things forward by touching/zooming the screen when they get stuck is productive and doesn't interrupt flow.

TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago

Good observation. Look at the image[1] on the Apple website showing off the Touch Bar on the new MacBook Pro. Nobody I know uses their laptop oriented perpendicular to their desk. One good vantage point to view the Touch Bar is standing behind the user looking over the their shoulder. 1. http://i.imgur.com/1iqXNZE.png http://i.imgur.com/1iqXNZE.png

travv0 10y ago
Look down at your functions keys. Surely you can read them just fine without being directly over them?

mikek 10y ago

Rest assured that Apple has thought about this a lot more than you have, and this is the solution they came up with. Touching a screen is pretty tiring for your arms; imagine if you had no trackpad but instead had to tap everything on the screen of your laptop. I assure you that very few people touch type the function keys; they will not be missed. The escape key I will miss, but how much I don't know.

dingaling 10y ago
> Touching a screen is pretty tiring for your arms Only if you're touching it constantly, without interruption, which is a very unusual use-case. Most instances are a quick tap on a dialogue button and then back to the resting / typing position. Anyhow, extending my arm to touch the screen feels little different to reaching for my Dell 'media keys' ( in the same location as Apple's Touch Bar ); just a slightly different vector. In either case I have to break my home-row poise, but when touching the screen at least I don't have to break my eyes-on-screen-focus whilst my finger comes into view. I like the idea up-thread of an alternative position for the Touch Bar below the screen, usually reserved for a logo which loiters uselessly but subliminally in my peripheral vision.

neotek 10y ago

A touchscreen on a laptop is as much use as tits on a bull, I'm glad Apple chose to do something different.

madeofpalk 10y ago

Steve Jobs, in 2008, on why touchscreen iMacs are bad http://www.technologizer.com/2008/10/14/my-question-with-steve/ http://www.technologizer.com/2008/10/14/my-question-with-ste... Steve Jobs, in 2010, on why touchscreen laptops are bad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeNsqqKadQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeNsqqKadQ4 Jonny Ive, last week, on why touchscreen laptops are bad https://www.cnet.com/special-reports/jony-ive-talks-about-putting-the-apple-touch-on-the-macbook-pro/ https://www.cnet.com/special-reports/jony-ive-talks-about-pu...

johnhenry 10y ago
Steve Jobs, in 2003, on why tablets are bad http://thenextweb.com/apple/2013/10/11/hear-steve-jobs-convincingly-dismiss-tablets-10-years-ago/ http://thenextweb.com/apple/2013/10/11/hear-steve-jobs-convi... Apple stood by this conviction until they started selling iPads. It's likely that they will maintain their position against touchscreen laptops only until they can make a reasonable profit selling them. I speculate that the reason for Apple not currently producing them, more than anything else, has to do with the fact that touchscreen laptops would cut into iPad sales.
- scottmf 10y ago
  That doesn't make sense. Apple has never been afraid to cannibalize a product line.
  - scoot 10y ago
    Apple under Jobs was never afraid to cannibalize a product line.
    - gurkendoktor 10y ago
      Do you think Jobs had already planned to cannibalise the 7" iPad by focusing on 5.5" phones?
- tudorw 10y ago
  I'm right now using this wacom lower surface with a fullhd antiglare touchscreen in front of me, a 695g 9mm thin device with an all day battery and a backlit keyboard that adapts to my typing style, what am I using?

ozgung 10y ago

> So I have to move my head up and down all the time. No you don't have to. You can simply move your eyes. Also humans have this ability called "peripheral vision". Not to mention using the touchbar is optional. If you want to memorise all the key combinations, you're fine. I think we should stop guessing about a new UI method before we actually try it.

kuschku 10y ago
> If you want to memorise all the key combinations, you're fine. So they didn’t remove an entire row of function keys that were used for exactly that purpose?
- herrkanin 10y ago
  The function keys are still there, you can invoke them by holding down the fn button just as before.
  - kuschku 10y ago
    There’s an F1 key? an F2 key? etc? Compare http://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/8748/as-images.apple.com/is/image/AppleInc/aos/published/images/2/01/2012/macbookpro/2012-macbookpro-gallery4?wid=978&hei=535&fmt=jpeg&qlt=95&op_sharpen=0&resMode=bicub&op_usm=0.5,0.5,0,0&iccEmbed=0&layer=comp&.v=46Skb1 http://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/8748/as-images.apple.... with https://camo.githubusercontent.com/60a3261655b2aca41e04bb32fe6e79c02b8d8dd8/687474703a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f54327864635a672e706e67 https://camo.githubusercontent.com/60a3261655b2aca41e04bb32f... Oh wait, nope, there’s not.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    But can you feel (without looking) whether you hit just F3, or F3 and F4?
    - pshc 10y ago
      Personally, my F key usage has been so infrequent (besides F5, once upon a time) that I can't reliably touch type them. I suspect most people are the same way, especially as keyboards have miniaturized and removed the 4-clustering.

bjn 10y ago

I was thinking the same thing, but I think that is manageable. The only thing I can't swallow is escluding the escape key as a physical button.

valine 10y ago

I already type on my iPhone without looking at the keys. You don't need tactile feedback to touch type. If you use the though bar in a particular app enough, I imagine muscle memory will help you out.

oliv__ 10y ago

>and while they were at that, they could make the entire screen a touch-screen instead of just a small bar. Just imagine... a touchscreen laptop. Now that would be amazing, right? Ummm..Gravity begs to differ. Adding touch to your laptop's screen is the worse possible thing you could do to it. It just makes zero sense ergonomically: try holding your hand up to your screen for 30s and tell me how that goes.

saghm 10y ago
I kind of have trouble imagining needing to use touch controls for a full thirty seconds for them to be useful. I don't even think I keep my hand on my mouse/trackpad for anywhere close to that amount of continuous time

Razengan 10y ago

> a touchscreen laptop. Now that would be amazing, right? No, not without a made-for-touch-from-the-ground-up OS, which neither macOS nor Windows is.

badestrand 10y ago
I can confirm. I have a touchscreen laptop and use it only once a week when discussing things with coworkers, because that way they can see more clearly what I do in contrast to using the mouse.