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You are not a cryptographer and not a hipster and apparently never had your life on the line in a way that made it imperative that your communications not be as

by Mz 10y ago

You are not a cryptographer and not a hipster and apparently never had your life on the line in a way that made it imperative that your communications not be associated with your phone number. Whether you are a journalist or an abused individual hiding from the ex spouse/parents/whomever that abused you, if your life and/or the lives of other people are on the line, this detail (and perhaps others, as I am not super technically literate) is a serious deal breaker. It has nothing whatsoever to do with some kind of vague, hand-wavy preference, like preferring red phones over blue ones because you like the color red. It has to do with "If I use this, will I or others end up dead, maimed, in jail for a lot of years or otherwise basically have one's life utterly ruined?" Like that movie scene where they blow up everything "because you made a phone call" (Enemy of the State, IIRC).

darklajid 10y ago
I'm .. confused. Aren't you basically just confirming my position, with stronger examples? Are we on the same side or do you disagree with my comment? I mean, I think I wrote[1] that I really dislike the connection between identity and phone numbers. I happen to use Telegram at the moment (I have exactly 5 contacts, one of those is the Telegram 'we updated the software' bot, another one is a random 'Sticker' bot), but I'm an xmpp guy deep down. Matrix looks promising, I just need to find the time/energy to make the switch (and convert the 3 'real' Telegram contacts). If you look at the thread with tptacek I do have to agree that the safest bet probably is Signal right now - if it leaks the phone number or not. I don't have to like it though... 1: If you look at my comments it seems that I repeat that in every other one, but English isn't my native language. Please blame the language barrier first, then blame the human behind the message.
- Mz 10y ago
  Signal is a great project and most criticism I've seen here so far is not 'Signal sucks', it is usually more a long the line of 'Signal is not for me' and I have a hard time understanding why that is debatable or why this shouldn't be a valid position. To me, remarks like this one read as "Eh, if Signal is not to your tastes, no big, but no reason to trash it either." But the article and I and others here are saying, "Yeah, no. This is not the same thing as picking a phone because you like red more than blue. This is more like refusing the blue one because it explodes sometimes when you answer it." For people for whom lives are on the line, this goes a lot deeper than personal preference.
  - darklajid 10y ago
    Okay, I kinda get where you're coming from now. But .. for a good number of 'life is on the line' scenarios leaking a random anonymous phone number (prepaid, whatever) and the arguably best encryption for instant messaging today might be a Good Idea™. Yes, you (and I, let's not forget that we kinda agree that this is bad design) might not want to share your private phone number just to contact someone via Signal. But I feel you're painting this a bit too black or white. If lives are at stake or not, Signal might or might not be the right solution. If people feel that their life is at risk, I hope they know how to evaluate the trade-offs - or have someone around that can explain it. We both don't like Signal. I don't agree that it should be dismissed and emotional appeals are ~questionable~, can probably be turned around (see first paragraph). Individual decisions need to be made and if Signal is a good fit or not for a specific scenario isn't an good indicator about the general fitness of Signal in general imo.
    - Mz 10y ago
      No, I don't have a beef with Signal. I have no familiarity with the product. I am a woman and violence is often directed at women merely because they are women, regardless of what part of the world a woman lives in. I am also someone whose father spent 26.5 years in the Army and he fought in two wars and my ex husband was career military and ...etc. My parents also helped relatives of my mother's escape East Germany during the Cold War. While you may hope that they know how to evaluate the trade-offs or have someone around that can explain it, many people live life under very risky circumstances and an uninformed choice can be the last choice they make. No, I am not painting this a bit too black and white. Alive or dead is a pretty black or white thing and many people live lives where death dogs their steps. This is not an appeal to emotion or hyperbole. This is a fact. If it isn't that big of a deal for you, cool. Glad to hear your life is fairly comfortable. But I do think it matters that informed, knowledgeable people discussing it on a forum with a strong reputation for being a good source of technical information (as well as other kinds of information) is a place where someone needs to make it very clear what the potential consequences are for people who live in dangerous circumstances and don't have the technical background or connections needed to figure this out.

by Mz 10y ago

darklajid 10y ago

I'm .. confused. Aren't you basically just confirming my position, with stronger examples? Are we on the same side or do you disagree with my comment? I mean, I think I wrote[1] that I really dislike the connection between identity and phone numbers. I happen to use Telegram at the moment (I have exactly 5 contacts, one of those is the Telegram 'we updated the software' bot, another one is a random 'Sticker' bot), but I'm an xmpp guy deep down. Matrix looks promising, I just need to find the time/energy to make the switch (and convert the 3 'real' Telegram contacts). If you look at the thread with tptacek I do have to agree that the safest bet probably is Signal right now - if it leaks the phone number or not. I don't have to like it though... 1: If you look at my comments it seems that I repeat that in every other one, but English isn't my native language. Please blame the language barrier first, then blame the human behind the message.

Mz 10y ago
Signal is a great project and most criticism I've seen here so far is not 'Signal sucks', it is usually more a long the line of 'Signal is not for me' and I have a hard time understanding why that is debatable or why this shouldn't be a valid position. To me, remarks like this one read as "Eh, if Signal is not to your tastes, no big, but no reason to trash it either." But the article and I and others here are saying, "Yeah, no. This is not the same thing as picking a phone because you like red more than blue. This is more like refusing the blue one because it explodes sometimes when you answer it." For people for whom lives are on the line, this goes a lot deeper than personal preference.
- darklajid 10y ago
  Okay, I kinda get where you're coming from now. But .. for a good number of 'life is on the line' scenarios leaking a random anonymous phone number (prepaid, whatever) and the arguably best encryption for instant messaging today might be a Good Idea™. Yes, you (and I, let's not forget that we kinda agree that this is bad design) might not want to share your private phone number just to contact someone via Signal. But I feel you're painting this a bit too black or white. If lives are at stake or not, Signal might or might not be the right solution. If people feel that their life is at risk, I hope they know how to evaluate the trade-offs - or have someone around that can explain it. We both don't like Signal. I don't agree that it should be dismissed and emotional appeals are ~questionable~, can probably be turned around (see first paragraph). Individual decisions need to be made and if Signal is a good fit or not for a specific scenario isn't an good indicator about the general fitness of Signal in general imo.
  - Mz 10y ago
    No, I don't have a beef with Signal. I have no familiarity with the product. I am a woman and violence is often directed at women merely because they are women, regardless of what part of the world a woman lives in. I am also someone whose father spent 26.5 years in the Army and he fought in two wars and my ex husband was career military and ...etc. My parents also helped relatives of my mother's escape East Germany during the Cold War. While you may hope that they know how to evaluate the trade-offs or have someone around that can explain it, many people live life under very risky circumstances and an uninformed choice can be the last choice they make. No, I am not painting this a bit too black and white. Alive or dead is a pretty black or white thing and many people live lives where death dogs their steps. This is not an appeal to emotion or hyperbole. This is a fact. If it isn't that big of a deal for you, cool. Glad to hear your life is fairly comfortable. But I do think it matters that informed, knowledgeable people discussing it on a forum with a strong reputation for being a good source of technical information (as well as other kinds of information) is a place where someone needs to make it very clear what the potential consequences are for people who live in dangerous circumstances and don't have the technical background or connections needed to figure this out.