4 ms·

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about USB-c and having to buy adapters or whatever. USB-c is a transitory period as we move to a state of being where

by muninn_ 10y ago

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about USB-c and having to buy adapters or whatever. USB-c is a transitory period as we move to a state of being where "crap does anybody have HDMI to DVI" or whatever is non-existent. We're moving away from physical cables and having to buy different connectors or adapters between products. It's a pain right now, because manufacturers haven't caught up (and might have an interest in never "catching up"), but the move Apple is making in standardizing ports and removing things like the headphone jack (while giving you an extension cord for backwards compatibility) are all moves in the right direction.

izacus 10y ago
I don't get this argument. Having 3 USB-C ports and a USB-A port would be the same kind of future proof, just without pissing off the users and making Pro use laptops really really annoying to use in daily life. Why are you selling the option of having ONLY USB-C or ONLY USB-A as a binary thing?
- muninn_ 10y ago
  No need for the USB-A. Just switch to C. You won't need to orient your power cord, and you'll have more throughput If you maintain the USB-A, users will keep using it instead of switching to the superior alternative and driving progress. I want a world of one universal connector and/or no wires/cords. USB-C is the start of this future.
  - kbutler 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome I'd find the "Apple is doing this for our own good with a single unified connector standard" position more credible if the new iPhone used USB-C.
  - guitarbill 10y ago
    > No need for the USB-A. Just switch to C. You won't need to orient your power cord, and you'll have more throughput Sadly, almost everything is still USB-A. USB sticks, 2FA tokens, mechanical keyboards, mice, and - oh yeah - iPhone charging cables. Would I like to move to USB-C? Sure. But as a professional, there's going to be some situations where I need that backwards compatibility, if not for me then for some client. There's going to be a really long transition period, because all that USB-A stuff is still 100% functional. And if you argue that adapters are the solution, then clearly we still need at least 1 port, so why not leave it? Design is supposed to improve usability. Technology is always a compromise, but for many people, thickness wasn't an issue in the first place. (BTW, magsafe power cords don't need orientating. Kind of a solved problem) > If you maintain the USB-A, users will keep using it instead of switching to the superior alternative and driving progress. This argument is backwards. If it's superior, then people will switch. For many use cases, USB-C offers no practical benefit - in other words, it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Is one USB-A port too much to ask for, for the sake of backwards compatibility and potential emergency use? On the other hand, ironically people (including me) would pay $$$ for a USB-C iPhone. That application of USB-C is clearly superior!
  - c0nducktr 10y ago
    > No need for the USB-A. Just switch to C. The iPhone 7 ships with a USB-A cable. You can't connect their flagship phone to their flagship laptop. What happened to "it just works"?
dingaling 10y ago
> "crap does anybody have HDMI to DVI" Unfortunately to be replaced with 'crap, does anyone have a USB-C cable that can handle 90W?' or 'is this USB-C cable good enough to handle Thunderbolt? Why isn't my Thunderbolt device connecting' or 'is this USB-C port 3.0 or 3.1?' Unless we standardise on over-engineered USB-C cables that can handle all possible use-cases ( and thus able to handle 100W even just to connect a mouse ) or introduce some sort of labelling system ( which doesn't move us on from the current cable-zoo ), then there's going to continue to be hair-pulling at the start of Powerpoint presentations in unfamiliar rooms.
- muninn_ 10y ago
  Again, you're just remarking on a temporary transition state. Even if the scenario you described happened, it would still be a far superior alternative to what we have now.
  - dingaling 10y ago
    None of the examples I gave will be transitory. A 10W-rated USB-C cable meets spec and power a hub but won't be able to charge a laptop. A USB-C cable will work for Thunderbolt 3 so long as it is less than metre long and has 'satisfactory' loss. Again it meets spec. You can connect an on-spec USB-C cable between a laptop and monitor and discover that the monitor doesn't support HDMI in Alternative Mode. Well, actually, you won't discover anything as it just won't work. Even if all the cables you buy are 100W platinum-plated ypu can still walk into a meeting room to find an on-spec cable that doesn't work for your use-case.
- 6nf 10y ago
  Yea but at least a 20W cable would still work if you don't have a 100W one handy. It would just take longer to charge your laptop. Is that really such a big deal? It's better than having a bunch of different ports.
pier25 10y ago
Considering not even Apple makes USB-C accessories I don't buy the idea of advancing the industry. It makes more sense to me that these machines were never intended to be released in 2017 but something happened and Apple didn't have a choice.
- muninn_ 10y ago
  Why would they need to make USB-c accessories (they do though)? Other companies can and do make them. Apple should stick to making forward-thinking machines and software.
  - pier25 10y ago
    Because Apple also manufactures accessories like keyboards and mice.
- grzm 10y ago
  Unless Apple does a complete refresh of their line at the same time, they're going to have a period of time when there is a mismatch between accessories and Macs. And there's going to be existing accessories and Macs that won't be compatible with those that are currently sold, regardless if Apple refreshes the entire line simultaneously. That's what adapters and new cables are for. Inconvenient, yes. What would be more reasonable in your eyes? How would you propose handling the transition?
  - pier25 10y ago
    That's precisely my point. When Apple removed the headphone port from the iPhone it added lightning headphones and an adapter into the box. It also announced the AirPods. But with these MBPs? Nothing. No new USB-C keyboard or mouse. No adapters included in the box. No USB-C iPhone. I don't think anybody in its right mind would think the dongle situation is remotely good or that the vast majority of people would not need any dongle. I also don't buy the idea that Apple is "advancing the industry" given the only thing it has done is removing USB-A ports. IMO it would have been wiser to keep 1 or 2 "legacy" USB-A ports.

by muninn_ 10y ago

izacus 10y ago

I don't get this argument. Having 3 USB-C ports and a USB-A port would be the same kind of future proof, just without pissing off the users and making Pro use laptops really really annoying to use in daily life. Why are you selling the option of having ONLY USB-C or ONLY USB-A as a binary thing?

muninn_ 10y ago
No need for the USB-A. Just switch to C. You won't need to orient your power cord, and you'll have more throughput If you maintain the USB-A, users will keep using it instead of switching to the superior alternative and driving progress. I want a world of one universal connector and/or no wires/cords. USB-C is the start of this future.
- kbutler 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome I'd find the "Apple is doing this for our own good with a single unified connector standard" position more credible if the new iPhone used USB-C.
- guitarbill 10y ago
  > No need for the USB-A. Just switch to C. You won't need to orient your power cord, and you'll have more throughput Sadly, almost everything is still USB-A. USB sticks, 2FA tokens, mechanical keyboards, mice, and - oh yeah - iPhone charging cables. Would I like to move to USB-C? Sure. But as a professional, there's going to be some situations where I need that backwards compatibility, if not for me then for some client. There's going to be a really long transition period, because all that USB-A stuff is still 100% functional. And if you argue that adapters are the solution, then clearly we still need at least 1 port, so why not leave it? Design is supposed to improve usability. Technology is always a compromise, but for many people, thickness wasn't an issue in the first place. (BTW, magsafe power cords don't need orientating. Kind of a solved problem) > If you maintain the USB-A, users will keep using it instead of switching to the superior alternative and driving progress. This argument is backwards. If it's superior, then people will switch. For many use cases, USB-C offers no practical benefit - in other words, it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Is one USB-A port too much to ask for, for the sake of backwards compatibility and potential emergency use? On the other hand, ironically people (including me) would pay $$$ for a USB-C iPhone. That application of USB-C is clearly superior!
- c0nducktr 10y ago
  > No need for the USB-A. Just switch to C. The iPhone 7 ships with a USB-A cable. You can't connect their flagship phone to their flagship laptop. What happened to "it just works"?

dingaling 10y ago

> "crap does anybody have HDMI to DVI" Unfortunately to be replaced with 'crap, does anyone have a USB-C cable that can handle 90W?' or 'is this USB-C cable good enough to handle Thunderbolt? Why isn't my Thunderbolt device connecting' or 'is this USB-C port 3.0 or 3.1?' Unless we standardise on over-engineered USB-C cables that can handle all possible use-cases ( and thus able to handle 100W even just to connect a mouse ) or introduce some sort of labelling system ( which doesn't move us on from the current cable-zoo ), then there's going to continue to be hair-pulling at the start of Powerpoint presentations in unfamiliar rooms.

muninn_ 10y ago
Again, you're just remarking on a temporary transition state. Even if the scenario you described happened, it would still be a far superior alternative to what we have now.
- dingaling 10y ago
  None of the examples I gave will be transitory. A 10W-rated USB-C cable meets spec and power a hub but won't be able to charge a laptop. A USB-C cable will work for Thunderbolt 3 so long as it is less than metre long and has 'satisfactory' loss. Again it meets spec. You can connect an on-spec USB-C cable between a laptop and monitor and discover that the monitor doesn't support HDMI in Alternative Mode. Well, actually, you won't discover anything as it just won't work. Even if all the cables you buy are 100W platinum-plated ypu can still walk into a meeting room to find an on-spec cable that doesn't work for your use-case.
6nf 10y ago
Yea but at least a 20W cable would still work if you don't have a 100W one handy. It would just take longer to charge your laptop. Is that really such a big deal? It's better than having a bunch of different ports.

pier25 10y ago

Considering not even Apple makes USB-C accessories I don't buy the idea of advancing the industry. It makes more sense to me that these machines were never intended to be released in 2017 but something happened and Apple didn't have a choice.

muninn_ 10y ago
Why would they need to make USB-c accessories (they do though)? Other companies can and do make them. Apple should stick to making forward-thinking machines and software.
- pier25 10y ago
  Because Apple also manufactures accessories like keyboards and mice.
grzm 10y ago
Unless Apple does a complete refresh of their line at the same time, they're going to have a period of time when there is a mismatch between accessories and Macs. And there's going to be existing accessories and Macs that won't be compatible with those that are currently sold, regardless if Apple refreshes the entire line simultaneously. That's what adapters and new cables are for. Inconvenient, yes. What would be more reasonable in your eyes? How would you propose handling the transition?
- pier25 10y ago
  That's precisely my point. When Apple removed the headphone port from the iPhone it added lightning headphones and an adapter into the box. It also announced the AirPods. But with these MBPs? Nothing. No new USB-C keyboard or mouse. No adapters included in the box. No USB-C iPhone. I don't think anybody in its right mind would think the dongle situation is remotely good or that the vast majority of people would not need any dongle. I also don't buy the idea that Apple is "advancing the industry" given the only thing it has done is removing USB-A ports. IMO it would have been wiser to keep 1 or 2 "legacy" USB-A ports.