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* The windows registry vs the OSX defaults system * Constantly changing APIs based on Microsofts internal politics vs. the very stable Cocoa * HiDPI that alwa

* The windows registry vs the OSX defaults system * Constantly changing APIs based on Microsofts internal politics vs. the very stable Cocoa * HiDPI that always works or has good fallbacks * Touchpad / gesture support that is actually pleasant and precise to use * Battery life * Multidesktop * POSIX scripting (that one is slowly coming to windows now) * Can be restored from another computer in a matter of minutes (see also the first point) * PDF support baked into OS

CJefferson 10y ago
* Constantly changing APIs based on Microsofts internal politics vs. the very stable Cocoa Really? I can run Windows apps I bought 10 years ago easily, whereas many Mac apps seem to break with every OS update. It's also extremely hard to build apps for older versions of Mac OS X, as Apple hide the older versions of the SDK.
- protomyth 10y ago
  I think m_mueller's comment is more from a developer's perspective than a users. Microsoft has done an amazing job of preserving compatibility. Its not that Microsoft gets rid of APIs (they don't), but that they haven't stuck with a "one true" API to program Windows in[1]. Their switching of what tech you should use to build your apps is problematic. Cocoa has been a long path, but my Windows friends have had a constant churn of the latest API to use. 1) I am talking about the stuff we are supposed to use above the base Win32.
  - TarpitCarnivore 10y ago
    I suspect this will change under Nadella. Things just feel like they have a better vision to them.
  - mhenr18 10y ago
    A key difference with the Microsoft approach vs the Apple approach is that on Windows the API that exposes every single feature is such a beast that developers are expected to work at a level above that API. Whether it's WPF, WinForms, WinRT, or whatever the new flavour of the day is, it's always a layer on top. And that layer is never perfect, because you still have to do the occasional [DllImport("Kernel32.dll")] interop reference. Here are the currently supported ways to deal with windows on Windows: * HWND * System.Windows.Window * Windows.UI.Xaml.Window On OSX, you use Cocoa. When Apple introduced Swift, they didn't have to layer on top of the API accessed by ObjC. When you write Swift code, you call the exact same APIs as you would have done with your ObjC code. Here are the currently supported ways to deal with windows on the Mac: * NSWindow
    - pjmlp 10y ago
      You use Cocoa in 2016. There was the Object Pascal Toolbox, replaced by C Toolbox (MacApp), replaced by MPW, replaced by PowerPlant, replaced by Carbon, replaced by Cocoa. I can list many other examples, even Cocoa has lots of deprecated APIs since OS X 10.0.
      - mhenr18 10y ago
        Sure, but the Windows APIs that I mentioned aren't historical. Those are all currently supported APIs. Carbon/Cocoa was the last time that OS X has had a dual-API situation but even then, Carbon was always referred to as the transitional library and Cocoa was always referred to as what you should use for new code. While Apple floundered during the 90s with their OS strategy, their API strategy in OS X has been absolutely rock solid. It's now 2016, Carbon has come and gone as it was intended to and Cocoa is still around and is still the API you use for working with the Mac. If you're trying to do something on the Mac, there's going to be a single officially supported way to do it and that's it (if it's supported at all). Meanwhile, there are three totally different frameworks on Windows that you can use to do the same thing, all of which are officially supported and none of which are deprecated.
        pjmlp 10y ago
        > It's now 2016, Carbon has come and gone as it was intended to and Cocoa is still around and is still the API you use for working with the Mac. If you're trying to do something on the Mac, there's going to be a single officially supported way to do it and that's it (if it's supported at all). There are quite a few 32bit apps making use of it and they will never be ported to Cocoa. > Meanwhile, there are three totally different frameworks on Windows that you can use to do the same thing, all of which are officially supported and none of which are deprecated. Win32 and MFC are deprecated for new applications, the way forward is UWP with XAML. Project Centipede is just for porting existing code into UWP world. Windows Forms was officially deprecated at BUILD 2014. https://www.infoq.com/news/2014/04/WPF-QA https://www.infoq.com/news/2014/04/WPF-QA
        deleted 10y ago
WayneBro 10y ago
Everything you listed as either incorrect or extremely insignificant. I don't have time to correct you right now but please, you're really reaching on quite a few of those. Edit: maybe it would help you to level out your perspective by thinking about some reasons why almost every business on the planet runs Windows and not Mac.
- no1youknowz 10y ago
  * Touchpad / gesture support that is actually pleasant and precise to use * Multidesktop * PDF support baked into OS He's right with these. I now solely use the touchpad on my MBPr. I cannot see myself ever switching back to a mouse. Having been a mouse user for 16 years! The ability to do a 3 finger swipe and switch to another virtual desktop in a split second is awesome. Is this possible on Windows? I don't know. I was working on a Windows 10 machine yesterday and PDFs opened with Edge. Again, I don't know if it's right or not.
  - protomyth 10y ago
    To be fair to Microsoft, Adobe threw a bit of a fit when Microsoft tried to add some basic PDF support that Apple already had. https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-adobe-squabble-over-pdf/ https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-adobe-squabble-over-pdf/
  - douche 10y ago
    I'm pretty sure Edge has PDF rendering built into it. It keeps trying to smash the default file association I had for Foxit.
    - aq3cn 10y ago
      Latest Windows insider build have DrawboardPDF app preinstalled. So no more dependence on Edge anymore.
  - erk__ 10y ago
    The abillity to have multiple desktops came with the anniversary update a couple of months ago.
addicted 10y ago
1) Do people still face Registry issues anymore? My ME system was hosed due to a minor registry corruption, but I haven't heard about Registry complaints in a decade (to be fair, I was completely in the mac camp, until a few months ago, so I may simply be unaware). 2) Applications written in the 90s still work on Windows 10. There was a short period (around Windows 8) where MS started dropping all their old APIs, but Windows 10 has stabilized that. 3) Yeah, screen resolution stuff is finicky on Windows but this is largely due to legacy apps. Modern apps don't have issues with this. 4) The Microsoft Precision touchpad APIs solve this problem. Admittedly far too many manufacturers are still using the old system (which pretends the touchpad is a USB connected mouse) but the ones that have switched to the Precision APIs are really nice, and keep improving with each Windows update. I expect very few non precision trackpads to exist come 2017 models. 5) Windows Laptops have as much, if not more battery life than Mac laptops. (The surface book gives you a 16 hour option). I don't think this is very valid anymore. 6) MultiDesktop - If you mean virtual desktops, Windows's Virtual desktops are no worse than MacOS's. Neither are close to what Linux offers. And if you are talking about multiple monitors, simply the presence of Win+Direction Keys makes Windows superior. 7) POSIX scripting - This is huge. It's why I usually run a Linux VM in my Win10 machine for most of my programming. Good thing that MS is improving, but I am not convinced the Linux Subsystem will ever be as good as being a POSIX OS in itself. 8) I have to strongly disagree with this one. Time Machine corrupts far too easily. You can theoretically restore from elsewhere, but the failure rate is way too high for anyone to trust Time Machine as a backup system. Windows backup while far less user friendly, is more reliable. If you are referring to more UNIXy solutions (which might be the case considering you refer to point 1), you may be correct. 9) Windows 10 has native PDF support.
- hyperpape 10y ago
  8. I believe the tool of choice among Mac users is Super-Duper. It creates bootable clones. Time Machine isn't that well regarded.
  - DowsingSpoon 10y ago
    The asr and ditto command line tools work very well and cost nothing.
spo81rty 10y ago
Why would most macOS users care about the Windows registry, Microsoft APIs, OS level PDF, or POSIX? Perhaps a programmer, but not an end user? Seems like I would take a super powerful Windows or linux server any day over a lower powered Mac Pro just because of the OS if hardware specs were that critical. Taking 10 vs 1 minute to render would be way more important. BTW, Windows 10 has multi desktop and most apps work fine with high DPI.
- mhenr18 10y ago
  You wouldn't be commenting on things working at high DPIs on Windows if you've been using a Mac for the past few years. It's really one of those things where a lot of Windows users think that it's fine, but once you see how well seamless and fully supported things are on OSX you realise just how much there is left to do. Every single app integrates well and the scaling is flawless even for the few that don't support 2x mode. I have never dragged a window between screens on the Mac and seen it appear at the wrong scale. I've done it about 50 times in the past week at my day job on my Windows machine. To be fair, that Windows machine drives a VR headset that you just can't use on OSX because no Macs have the compute power needed - there are definite wins to going with Windows. It's just that the Windows mentality is to just get most things working and assume the rest is just something that most users won't care about, whereas the Mac mentality is to get it all to work together seamlessly.
  - spo81rty 10y ago
    I have seen that on Windows when dragging between monitors, but only if they are different resolutions. At work I use 3 monitors all 4k and they work flawlessly. But yes some windows apps still leave a lot desired on 4k if they haven't been updated.
  - mhermher 10y ago
    I've never dragged a window between screens on Windows because that's not something you do on Windows. You use win+direction. Something sorely missing from osx and third party software is nowhere near as good as the native Windows solution. I use both OSs almost everyday. Mac for work, and win for home. The fact that you mention dragging windows (a necessity on mac) in Windows shows that you probably don't use it very much or don't know how to use it conveniently. I enjoy both OSs (the UX is basically 90% the same btw), they're fine. And there are areas where one works better than the other. By focusing on the issues with one of them without realizing the issues of the other just shows that you're probably not familiar with the other. I'm not disputing your point, just showing your partiality. I've literally not had to "manually" resize or drag a window in Windows since Win7, but I do it everyday on mac. The Windows model for window management is just better, but you'd never hear it in these comments.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
lucb1e 10y ago
I don't like Microsoft and I like Apple about as much, but I have to be fair: almost everything on that list can be solved in two weeks if you distribute the tasks. Give it another month for polishing and testing. Now fill the other 9 years and 10 months, minus two or three developers that are still working on some of the bigger items for another couple of months at most.
haldean 10y ago
Some of these are valid, but: * My Razer Blade 2015 has no problem driving its hidpi screen and my lodpi monitor, even at the same time * My battery lasts 8 hours with a VM running, which is about as good as any MacBook I've ever had * Multi desktop exists in Win10, Win+Tab lets you switch desktops Windows isn't perfect, and I spent a long time on a combination of Linux and Mac machines, but my daily driver is Windows with a Linux VM for programming now and I'm perfectly happy.
- mhenr18 10y ago
  And you don't notice any issues when you drag windows between the two monitors? One of the developers at my work can't do fine tuning of our styles because his Windows multi-display setup won't re-render apps at 1x when he drags them to the lodpi monitor. Instead it renders the app at 2x and downscales it to 1x, blurring everything.
  - haldean 10y ago
    I'm actually not sure, I'll have to try that when I get back to my office. I always have a VM on one monitor and Windows on the other, so I never move things around. I might have to eat my words...
pjmlp 10y ago
> Constantly changing APIs based on Microsofts internal politics vs. the very stable Cocoa Really? Mac OS also has a very long history of deprecated and thrown out of the window APIs and SDKs.

CJefferson 10y ago

* Constantly changing APIs based on Microsofts internal politics vs. the very stable Cocoa Really? I can run Windows apps I bought 10 years ago easily, whereas many Mac apps seem to break with every OS update. It's also extremely hard to build apps for older versions of Mac OS X, as Apple hide the older versions of the SDK.

protomyth 10y ago
I think m_mueller's comment is more from a developer's perspective than a users. Microsoft has done an amazing job of preserving compatibility. Its not that Microsoft gets rid of APIs (they don't), but that they haven't stuck with a "one true" API to program Windows in[1]. Their switching of what tech you should use to build your apps is problematic. Cocoa has been a long path, but my Windows friends have had a constant churn of the latest API to use. 1) I am talking about the stuff we are supposed to use above the base Win32.
- TarpitCarnivore 10y ago
  I suspect this will change under Nadella. Things just feel like they have a better vision to them.
- mhenr18 10y ago
  A key difference with the Microsoft approach vs the Apple approach is that on Windows the API that exposes every single feature is such a beast that developers are expected to work at a level above that API. Whether it's WPF, WinForms, WinRT, or whatever the new flavour of the day is, it's always a layer on top. And that layer is never perfect, because you still have to do the occasional [DllImport("Kernel32.dll")] interop reference. Here are the currently supported ways to deal with windows on Windows: * HWND * System.Windows.Window * Windows.UI.Xaml.Window On OSX, you use Cocoa. When Apple introduced Swift, they didn't have to layer on top of the API accessed by ObjC. When you write Swift code, you call the exact same APIs as you would have done with your ObjC code. Here are the currently supported ways to deal with windows on the Mac: * NSWindow
  - pjmlp 10y ago
    You use Cocoa in 2016. There was the Object Pascal Toolbox, replaced by C Toolbox (MacApp), replaced by MPW, replaced by PowerPlant, replaced by Carbon, replaced by Cocoa. I can list many other examples, even Cocoa has lots of deprecated APIs since OS X 10.0.
    - mhenr18 10y ago
      Sure, but the Windows APIs that I mentioned aren't historical. Those are all currently supported APIs. Carbon/Cocoa was the last time that OS X has had a dual-API situation but even then, Carbon was always referred to as the transitional library and Cocoa was always referred to as what you should use for new code. While Apple floundered during the 90s with their OS strategy, their API strategy in OS X has been absolutely rock solid. It's now 2016, Carbon has come and gone as it was intended to and Cocoa is still around and is still the API you use for working with the Mac. If you're trying to do something on the Mac, there's going to be a single officially supported way to do it and that's it (if it's supported at all). Meanwhile, there are three totally different frameworks on Windows that you can use to do the same thing, all of which are officially supported and none of which are deprecated.
      - pjmlp 10y ago
        > It's now 2016, Carbon has come and gone as it was intended to and Cocoa is still around and is still the API you use for working with the Mac. If you're trying to do something on the Mac, there's going to be a single officially supported way to do it and that's it (if it's supported at all). There are quite a few 32bit apps making use of it and they will never be ported to Cocoa. > Meanwhile, there are three totally different frameworks on Windows that you can use to do the same thing, all of which are officially supported and none of which are deprecated. Win32 and MFC are deprecated for new applications, the way forward is UWP with XAML. Project Centipede is just for porting existing code into UWP world. Windows Forms was officially deprecated at BUILD 2014. https://www.infoq.com/news/2014/04/WPF-QA https://www.infoq.com/news/2014/04/WPF-QA
        deleted 10y ago

WayneBro 10y ago

Everything you listed as either incorrect or extremely insignificant. I don't have time to correct you right now but please, you're really reaching on quite a few of those. Edit: maybe it would help you to level out your perspective by thinking about some reasons why almost every business on the planet runs Windows and not Mac.

no1youknowz 10y ago
* Touchpad / gesture support that is actually pleasant and precise to use * Multidesktop * PDF support baked into OS He's right with these. I now solely use the touchpad on my MBPr. I cannot see myself ever switching back to a mouse. Having been a mouse user for 16 years! The ability to do a 3 finger swipe and switch to another virtual desktop in a split second is awesome. Is this possible on Windows? I don't know. I was working on a Windows 10 machine yesterday and PDFs opened with Edge. Again, I don't know if it's right or not.
- protomyth 10y ago
  To be fair to Microsoft, Adobe threw a bit of a fit when Microsoft tried to add some basic PDF support that Apple already had. https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-adobe-squabble-over-pdf/ https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-adobe-squabble-over-pdf/
- douche 10y ago
  I'm pretty sure Edge has PDF rendering built into it. It keeps trying to smash the default file association I had for Foxit.
  - aq3cn 10y ago
    Latest Windows insider build have DrawboardPDF app preinstalled. So no more dependence on Edge anymore.
- erk__ 10y ago
  The abillity to have multiple desktops came with the anniversary update a couple of months ago.

addicted 10y ago

1) Do people still face Registry issues anymore? My ME system was hosed due to a minor registry corruption, but I haven't heard about Registry complaints in a decade (to be fair, I was completely in the mac camp, until a few months ago, so I may simply be unaware). 2) Applications written in the 90s still work on Windows 10. There was a short period (around Windows 8) where MS started dropping all their old APIs, but Windows 10 has stabilized that. 3) Yeah, screen resolution stuff is finicky on Windows but this is largely due to legacy apps. Modern apps don't have issues with this. 4) The Microsoft Precision touchpad APIs solve this problem. Admittedly far too many manufacturers are still using the old system (which pretends the touchpad is a USB connected mouse) but the ones that have switched to the Precision APIs are really nice, and keep improving with each Windows update. I expect very few non precision trackpads to exist come 2017 models. 5) Windows Laptops have as much, if not more battery life than Mac laptops. (The surface book gives you a 16 hour option). I don't think this is very valid anymore. 6) MultiDesktop - If you mean virtual desktops, Windows's Virtual desktops are no worse than MacOS's. Neither are close to what Linux offers. And if you are talking about multiple monitors, simply the presence of Win+Direction Keys makes Windows superior. 7) POSIX scripting - This is huge. It's why I usually run a Linux VM in my Win10 machine for most of my programming. Good thing that MS is improving, but I am not convinced the Linux Subsystem will ever be as good as being a POSIX OS in itself. 8) I have to strongly disagree with this one. Time Machine corrupts far too easily. You can theoretically restore from elsewhere, but the failure rate is way too high for anyone to trust Time Machine as a backup system. Windows backup while far less user friendly, is more reliable. If you are referring to more UNIXy solutions (which might be the case considering you refer to point 1), you may be correct. 9) Windows 10 has native PDF support.

hyperpape 10y ago
8. I believe the tool of choice among Mac users is Super-Duper. It creates bootable clones. Time Machine isn't that well regarded.
- DowsingSpoon 10y ago
  The asr and ditto command line tools work very well and cost nothing.

spo81rty 10y ago

Why would most macOS users care about the Windows registry, Microsoft APIs, OS level PDF, or POSIX? Perhaps a programmer, but not an end user? Seems like I would take a super powerful Windows or linux server any day over a lower powered Mac Pro just because of the OS if hardware specs were that critical. Taking 10 vs 1 minute to render would be way more important. BTW, Windows 10 has multi desktop and most apps work fine with high DPI.

mhenr18 10y ago
You wouldn't be commenting on things working at high DPIs on Windows if you've been using a Mac for the past few years. It's really one of those things where a lot of Windows users think that it's fine, but once you see how well seamless and fully supported things are on OSX you realise just how much there is left to do. Every single app integrates well and the scaling is flawless even for the few that don't support 2x mode. I have never dragged a window between screens on the Mac and seen it appear at the wrong scale. I've done it about 50 times in the past week at my day job on my Windows machine. To be fair, that Windows machine drives a VR headset that you just can't use on OSX because no Macs have the compute power needed - there are definite wins to going with Windows. It's just that the Windows mentality is to just get most things working and assume the rest is just something that most users won't care about, whereas the Mac mentality is to get it all to work together seamlessly.
- spo81rty 10y ago
  I have seen that on Windows when dragging between monitors, but only if they are different resolutions. At work I use 3 monitors all 4k and they work flawlessly. But yes some windows apps still leave a lot desired on 4k if they haven't been updated.
- mhermher 10y ago
  I've never dragged a window between screens on Windows because that's not something you do on Windows. You use win+direction. Something sorely missing from osx and third party software is nowhere near as good as the native Windows solution. I use both OSs almost everyday. Mac for work, and win for home. The fact that you mention dragging windows (a necessity on mac) in Windows shows that you probably don't use it very much or don't know how to use it conveniently. I enjoy both OSs (the UX is basically 90% the same btw), they're fine. And there are areas where one works better than the other. By focusing on the issues with one of them without realizing the issues of the other just shows that you're probably not familiar with the other. I'm not disputing your point, just showing your partiality. I've literally not had to "manually" resize or drag a window in Windows since Win7, but I do it everyday on mac. The Windows model for window management is just better, but you'd never hear it in these comments.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

lucb1e 10y ago

I don't like Microsoft and I like Apple about as much, but I have to be fair: almost everything on that list can be solved in two weeks if you distribute the tasks. Give it another month for polishing and testing. Now fill the other 9 years and 10 months, minus two or three developers that are still working on some of the bigger items for another couple of months at most.

haldean 10y ago

Some of these are valid, but: * My Razer Blade 2015 has no problem driving its hidpi screen and my lodpi monitor, even at the same time * My battery lasts 8 hours with a VM running, which is about as good as any MacBook I've ever had * Multi desktop exists in Win10, Win+Tab lets you switch desktops Windows isn't perfect, and I spent a long time on a combination of Linux and Mac machines, but my daily driver is Windows with a Linux VM for programming now and I'm perfectly happy.

mhenr18 10y ago
And you don't notice any issues when you drag windows between the two monitors? One of the developers at my work can't do fine tuning of our styles because his Windows multi-display setup won't re-render apps at 1x when he drags them to the lodpi monitor. Instead it renders the app at 2x and downscales it to 1x, blurring everything.
- haldean 10y ago
  I'm actually not sure, I'll have to try that when I get back to my office. I always have a VM on one monitor and Windows on the other, so I never move things around. I might have to eat my words...

pjmlp 10y ago

> Constantly changing APIs based on Microsofts internal politics vs. the very stable Cocoa Really? Mac OS also has a very long history of deprecated and thrown out of the window APIs and SDKs.