3 ms·

> If you say "John is foo" you tend to create the impression that John will always and has always been foo. Interestingly in Spanish and Portuguese there are t

by wolfgke 10y ago

> If you say "John is foo" you tend to create the impression that John will always and has always been foo. Interestingly in Spanish and Portuguese there are two verbs of "to be": "ser" and "estar". These have different meanings: ser ist mostly used for persistent states of being, while estar is mostly used for something that is only temporarily as it is, but could be different the next time.

praseodym 10y ago
Isn't that a bit like "is" vs. "is being"?
- pedrocr 10y ago
  The "is being" construct also exists by using the two verbs ("estar a ser") but it's not the same. Basically in order of permanence: ser -> a mostly permanent characteristic estar -> a current characteristic that could change in the future estar a ser -> a characteristic of the specific interaction
  - raldi 10y ago
    Is that last one like, "I am to be married on Saturday"?
    - pedrocr 10y ago
      Not really, that's just a future tense. Here's the correspondence instantiated: "I am tall" -> "sou alto" (ser) "I am broke" -> "estou falido" (estar) "I am being boring" -> "estou a ser aborrecido" (estar a ser) What english doesn't have as easily without context is the distinction between the first two forms because it has a single verb for both.
  - wolfgke 10y ago
    In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12879933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12879933 you gave an example of "estar a ser" for Portuguese. Since I currently try to learn both Spanish and Portuguese: Does a form similar to "estar a ser" also exist in Spanish or is it specific to Portuguese?
    - schoen 10y ago
      I think that pedrocr is from Portugal so in case you're learning Brazilian Portuguese you should consider that Brazilians usually use "estar + present participle" where the Portuguese use "estar a + infinitive" (for example "estou a falar" vs. "estou falando"). Brazilians thus have "estar sendo" which can be used in many cases where English has "is being", but as a non-native speaker I'm not sure what I can claim about its connotations or whether it's the same as "estar a ser". But my initial guess is that the Portuguese say "estou a ser" just as they say "estou a falar", while Brazilians say "estou sendo" just as they say "estou falando". Spanish-speakers in turn have "estar siendo" with the Spanish present participle of ser, like "estoy siendo". I suspect this is the standard form of this construction in all kinds of Spanish.
      - wolfgke 10y ago
        Thank you for the explanation. This clarifies why I haven't (consciously) seen the "estou a + infinitive" form yet - the Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese forms look more familiar to me. :-)
        schoen 10y ago
        You might have an amusingly confused time in Portugal, as I did! "O comboio está a chegar." (plus different phonology)
      - pedrocr 10y ago
        Yep, that's exactly it. "is being" and "estar a ser"/"estar sendo" are pretty much the same thing. What english doesn't have is the "ser"/"estar" distinction, both map to "to be".
- wolfgke 10y ago
  > Isn't that a bit like "is" vs. "is being"? I'm not a native speaker of English, so I might not perceive some subtleties. But at least how I perceive it is the meaning of "is being" is similar "estar", while "to be" is used for both meanings in English. In Spanish and Portuguese (as far as I understand it, I'm still learning a lot) "ser" is used only for the "permanent" meaning.
- raldi 10y ago
  Not exactly; you would never say, "I am being hungry". You just say, "I am hungry" -- with the exact same form you'd use for, "I am amazing."
  - philipov 10y ago
    While there isn't a single word change, you can not merely say "I am hungry" to express a habitual state of hunger. Used without qualification, hunger is a transitory state. To express habitual hunger you could add a frequency qualifier, such as 'I am often hungry.' On the other hand, "I am being amazing" is a perfectly valid construction, because 'amazing' by default describes a habitual state rather than a transitory one, and 'being' changes it to a current action rather than a habitual state.
    - schoen 10y ago
      An example that someone gave me when I started learning Portuguese is that someone could be insulted if she came to a party and you said "está linda!" or "que linda está!" because of the potentially implied contrast with her normal or usual appearance (akin to English "you look lovely" or "you look lovely tonight": does that mean to suggest that she normally doesn't?).
MereInterest 10y ago
Also interesting is that this distinction occurs in some dialects of English as well. In AAVE, this is the distinction between "Elmo is eating cookies." and "Cookie Monster be eating cookies." The former indicates a current action that is taken. The latter indicates an action that is often taken. One is a statement about a person's actions, while the other is a statement about a person's habits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitual_be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitual_be
- zazen 10y ago
  The distinction between current and habitual actions also exists in standard English, of course: "Cookie monster eats cookies" vs "Elmo is eating cookies". I'm not sure whether this is quite the same as the distinction the comments you are replying to are talking about. They're talking about a less absolute way of using "is" to ascribe attributes, rather than actions. More like the distinction between "John is an angry man" and "John is angry right now".
  - jameshart 10y ago
    The thing is that 'to be' is a special verb in English, so the distinction between "John is being angry" and "John is angry" isn't there, and "John is angry" could mean either current or habitual anger. You can't argue that because a distinction exists for 'to eat' it also exists or is understood the same for 'to be'. English admits the sentence "Big bird does eat cookies" but not "John does be angry".
    - philipov 10y ago
      In the first case, I read both as temporary states, and the only way to express it as a habitual state would be to make a more complex construction such as 'John is an angry person.' As for the second case, I think the usual way to achieve that effect in English is to use a frequency qualifier, such as in "John is sometimes angry," to modify the transitory state into a habitual one.

by wolfgke 10y ago

praseodym 10y ago

Isn't that a bit like "is" vs. "is being"?

pedrocr 10y ago
The "is being" construct also exists by using the two verbs ("estar a ser") but it's not the same. Basically in order of permanence: ser -> a mostly permanent characteristic estar -> a current characteristic that could change in the future estar a ser -> a characteristic of the specific interaction
- raldi 10y ago
  Is that last one like, "I am to be married on Saturday"?
  - pedrocr 10y ago
    Not really, that's just a future tense. Here's the correspondence instantiated: "I am tall" -> "sou alto" (ser) "I am broke" -> "estou falido" (estar) "I am being boring" -> "estou a ser aborrecido" (estar a ser) What english doesn't have as easily without context is the distinction between the first two forms because it has a single verb for both.
- wolfgke 10y ago
  In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12879933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12879933 you gave an example of "estar a ser" for Portuguese. Since I currently try to learn both Spanish and Portuguese: Does a form similar to "estar a ser" also exist in Spanish or is it specific to Portuguese?
  - schoen 10y ago
    I think that pedrocr is from Portugal so in case you're learning Brazilian Portuguese you should consider that Brazilians usually use "estar + present participle" where the Portuguese use "estar a + infinitive" (for example "estou a falar" vs. "estou falando"). Brazilians thus have "estar sendo" which can be used in many cases where English has "is being", but as a non-native speaker I'm not sure what I can claim about its connotations or whether it's the same as "estar a ser". But my initial guess is that the Portuguese say "estou a ser" just as they say "estou a falar", while Brazilians say "estou sendo" just as they say "estou falando". Spanish-speakers in turn have "estar siendo" with the Spanish present participle of ser, like "estoy siendo". I suspect this is the standard form of this construction in all kinds of Spanish.
    - wolfgke 10y ago
      Thank you for the explanation. This clarifies why I haven't (consciously) seen the "estou a + infinitive" form yet - the Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese forms look more familiar to me. :-)
      - schoen 10y ago
        You might have an amusingly confused time in Portugal, as I did! "O comboio está a chegar." (plus different phonology)
    - pedrocr 10y ago
      Yep, that's exactly it. "is being" and "estar a ser"/"estar sendo" are pretty much the same thing. What english doesn't have is the "ser"/"estar" distinction, both map to "to be".
wolfgke 10y ago
> Isn't that a bit like "is" vs. "is being"? I'm not a native speaker of English, so I might not perceive some subtleties. But at least how I perceive it is the meaning of "is being" is similar "estar", while "to be" is used for both meanings in English. In Spanish and Portuguese (as far as I understand it, I'm still learning a lot) "ser" is used only for the "permanent" meaning.
raldi 10y ago
Not exactly; you would never say, "I am being hungry". You just say, "I am hungry" -- with the exact same form you'd use for, "I am amazing."
- philipov 10y ago
  While there isn't a single word change, you can not merely say "I am hungry" to express a habitual state of hunger. Used without qualification, hunger is a transitory state. To express habitual hunger you could add a frequency qualifier, such as 'I am often hungry.' On the other hand, "I am being amazing" is a perfectly valid construction, because 'amazing' by default describes a habitual state rather than a transitory one, and 'being' changes it to a current action rather than a habitual state.
  - schoen 10y ago
    An example that someone gave me when I started learning Portuguese is that someone could be insulted if she came to a party and you said "está linda!" or "que linda está!" because of the potentially implied contrast with her normal or usual appearance (akin to English "you look lovely" or "you look lovely tonight": does that mean to suggest that she normally doesn't?).

MereInterest 10y ago

Also interesting is that this distinction occurs in some dialects of English as well. In AAVE, this is the distinction between "Elmo is eating cookies." and "Cookie Monster be eating cookies." The former indicates a current action that is taken. The latter indicates an action that is often taken. One is a statement about a person's actions, while the other is a statement about a person's habits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitual_be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitual_be

zazen 10y ago
The distinction between current and habitual actions also exists in standard English, of course: "Cookie monster eats cookies" vs "Elmo is eating cookies". I'm not sure whether this is quite the same as the distinction the comments you are replying to are talking about. They're talking about a less absolute way of using "is" to ascribe attributes, rather than actions. More like the distinction between "John is an angry man" and "John is angry right now".
- jameshart 10y ago
  The thing is that 'to be' is a special verb in English, so the distinction between "John is being angry" and "John is angry" isn't there, and "John is angry" could mean either current or habitual anger. You can't argue that because a distinction exists for 'to eat' it also exists or is understood the same for 'to be'. English admits the sentence "Big bird does eat cookies" but not "John does be angry".
  - philipov 10y ago
    In the first case, I read both as temporary states, and the only way to express it as a habitual state would be to make a more complex construction such as 'John is an angry person.' As for the second case, I think the usual way to achieve that effect in English is to use a frequency qualifier, such as in "John is sometimes angry," to modify the transitory state into a habitual one.