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> It seems to me that not many people realize just how highly the EU is valued in Germany across the political spectrum. People seem to severely underestimate w

> It seems to me that not many people realize just how highly the EU is valued in Germany across the political spectrum. People seem to severely underestimate what sacrifices Germany is willing to make in the context of Brexit to benefit the EU. The perception of the EU as a German project — or experiment, if you will — was one of the factors leading people to vote for Brexit.

emp_zealoth 10y ago
I believe a lot of countries will show no mercy to UK, not just germany. No one wants to see a lopsided deal struck at the expense of their own.
- gravypod 10y ago
  Isn't that quite scary for you? I don't think I'd every want to be part of a multinational organization that has unelected rulers, is attempting to build a military, and will give anyone leaving it a hard time. That's an absurd state to be in and it's already a parody of itself.
  - emp_zealoth 10y ago
    The EU is not giving UK hard time. It is simply no longer willing to go above and beyond to appease them nor should it do so. If UK does not want to take part in responsibilities but would like to keep the benefits EU is not able to allow that. It is a simple fact that there are no satisfactory ways for UK to leave EU and it is not EU fault. Most of EU rulers are democratically elected, at least no less than in most country-level governments. I support federalisation of EU. Most of the issues with EU stem from not enough integration and overly nationalistic nonsense countries do to the detriment of everybody. Euro needs a reform that will introduce transfers to less wealthy states, UK blocking much needed finance reform to keep its criminal City afloat, different countries throwing everyone under the bus so they can protect their own reelection. Any talk of "sovereignity" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the banks and trade agreemens and megacorps Together the EU is the biggest economy, outside of it you are just a shitty country that is hungover on glory long past
    - gravypod 10y ago
      >Most of EU rulers are democratically elected, at least no less than in most country-level governments. "Most", need I say more? > Most of the issues with EU stem from not enough integration and overly nationalistic nonsense countries do to the detriment of everybody "Ok so what we're doing isn't working out but if you give us more money and power I swear it'll work guys! Just trust me and give up your currency, boarders, militaries, and legislative branches and don't worry this isn't sketchy at all" > Euro needs a reform that will introduce transfers to less wealthy states Ah so the EU is now a charity/Robin Hood organization. Not a government? Most government's aren't so selfless. I'd go so far as to say that no government can be as selfless. > UK blocking much needed finance reform to keep its criminal City afloat Criminal City? > different countries throwing everyone under the bus so they can protect their own reelection. That's what happens with all governments. It's not about the public, it's about maintaining power. > Any talk of "sovereignity" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the banks and trade agreemens and megacorps Would you have found it better for black people living in America during segregation to say "Any talk of "equality" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the government and the kkk and the racist people" or do you think it was right for them to fight to reverse the encroachment of their basic human rights? I see Brexit as a means of fighting back against a relentless ruling class that has grown out of an apathy of the working class. > Together the EU is the biggest economy, outside of it you are just a shitty country that is hungover on glory long past I can't see a single economist predicting a good future for the EU. It all looks doom and gloom from here on out. I'd say that the countries that are the worst off would benifit the most from less trade regulations. Look at what China and India have become. "Super power by 2020" would be a great thing to hear about the eastern block but that will never be the case under EU's thumbs
      - emp_zealoth 10y ago
        >I see Brexit as a means of fighting back against a relentless ruling class that has grown out of an apathy of the working class. What you did is you submitted yourself to whackjobs like May or Johnson who apparently think that advisory referendum made them supreme rulers that can just sidestep the parliament Wonder why UK is talking about leaving EHRC if you want your human rights protected Criminal City as in main export goods of UK: LIBOR fixing, tax evasion, money laundering, etc. After 2008 there were genuine attempts at reform, all succesfully cockblocked and watered down by UK Everywhere there is doom and gloom, not just EU - the current financial system will collapse under the unbearable debt that is created ever quicker. And the rise of China and India is exactly why small countries are irrelevant. Sure, you get to feel all important for a while, but since you don't really have much to offer to a giant they can just steamroll over you. Thats what I don't get. You bitch and moan about how EU is evil and trying to destroy UK, for taking EU perks away and then you turn around and argue how evil and bad the EU is because it has nothing to offer...
  - cmurf 10y ago
    Umm? The United States of America? Originally two and a half of three branches of government were indirectly elected. Today it's two of three. That half was the U.S. Senate, who ascended by state legislatures, not voted on. And today still federal judges are not elected, and the presidency is indirectly elected via the Electoral College. What matters is the accountability, not the unelected aspect. The U.S. is increasingly more centralized as history goes on, it used to be more things were left up to the states, i.e. federalism, a.k.a. a multinational organization.
    - gravypod 10y ago
      Just because my country does it doesn't mean I agree with it. I feel that the public should have a streamlined voting process for making their opinions heard on ever government related matter

emp_zealoth 10y ago

I believe a lot of countries will show no mercy to UK, not just germany. No one wants to see a lopsided deal struck at the expense of their own.

gravypod 10y ago
Isn't that quite scary for you? I don't think I'd every want to be part of a multinational organization that has unelected rulers, is attempting to build a military, and will give anyone leaving it a hard time. That's an absurd state to be in and it's already a parody of itself.
- emp_zealoth 10y ago
  The EU is not giving UK hard time. It is simply no longer willing to go above and beyond to appease them nor should it do so. If UK does not want to take part in responsibilities but would like to keep the benefits EU is not able to allow that. It is a simple fact that there are no satisfactory ways for UK to leave EU and it is not EU fault. Most of EU rulers are democratically elected, at least no less than in most country-level governments. I support federalisation of EU. Most of the issues with EU stem from not enough integration and overly nationalistic nonsense countries do to the detriment of everybody. Euro needs a reform that will introduce transfers to less wealthy states, UK blocking much needed finance reform to keep its criminal City afloat, different countries throwing everyone under the bus so they can protect their own reelection. Any talk of "sovereignity" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the banks and trade agreemens and megacorps Together the EU is the biggest economy, outside of it you are just a shitty country that is hungover on glory long past
  - gravypod 10y ago
    >Most of EU rulers are democratically elected, at least no less than in most country-level governments. "Most", need I say more? > Most of the issues with EU stem from not enough integration and overly nationalistic nonsense countries do to the detriment of everybody "Ok so what we're doing isn't working out but if you give us more money and power I swear it'll work guys! Just trust me and give up your currency, boarders, militaries, and legislative branches and don't worry this isn't sketchy at all" > Euro needs a reform that will introduce transfers to less wealthy states Ah so the EU is now a charity/Robin Hood organization. Not a government? Most government's aren't so selfless. I'd go so far as to say that no government can be as selfless. > UK blocking much needed finance reform to keep its criminal City afloat Criminal City? > different countries throwing everyone under the bus so they can protect their own reelection. That's what happens with all governments. It's not about the public, it's about maintaining power. > Any talk of "sovereignity" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the banks and trade agreemens and megacorps Would you have found it better for black people living in America during segregation to say "Any talk of "equality" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between the government and the kkk and the racist people" or do you think it was right for them to fight to reverse the encroachment of their basic human rights? I see Brexit as a means of fighting back against a relentless ruling class that has grown out of an apathy of the working class. > Together the EU is the biggest economy, outside of it you are just a shitty country that is hungover on glory long past I can't see a single economist predicting a good future for the EU. It all looks doom and gloom from here on out. I'd say that the countries that are the worst off would benifit the most from less trade regulations. Look at what China and India have become. "Super power by 2020" would be a great thing to hear about the eastern block but that will never be the case under EU's thumbs
    - emp_zealoth 10y ago
      >I see Brexit as a means of fighting back against a relentless ruling class that has grown out of an apathy of the working class. What you did is you submitted yourself to whackjobs like May or Johnson who apparently think that advisory referendum made them supreme rulers that can just sidestep the parliament Wonder why UK is talking about leaving EHRC if you want your human rights protected Criminal City as in main export goods of UK: LIBOR fixing, tax evasion, money laundering, etc. After 2008 there were genuine attempts at reform, all succesfully cockblocked and watered down by UK Everywhere there is doom and gloom, not just EU - the current financial system will collapse under the unbearable debt that is created ever quicker. And the rise of China and India is exactly why small countries are irrelevant. Sure, you get to feel all important for a while, but since you don't really have much to offer to a giant they can just steamroll over you. Thats what I don't get. You bitch and moan about how EU is evil and trying to destroy UK, for taking EU perks away and then you turn around and argue how evil and bad the EU is because it has nothing to offer...
- cmurf 10y ago
  Umm? The United States of America? Originally two and a half of three branches of government were indirectly elected. Today it's two of three. That half was the U.S. Senate, who ascended by state legislatures, not voted on. And today still federal judges are not elected, and the presidency is indirectly elected via the Electoral College. What matters is the accountability, not the unelected aspect. The U.S. is increasingly more centralized as history goes on, it used to be more things were left up to the states, i.e. federalism, a.k.a. a multinational organization.
  - gravypod 10y ago
    Just because my country does it doesn't mean I agree with it. I feel that the public should have a streamlined voting process for making their opinions heard on ever government related matter