4 ms·

It's practically out of control. How do you educate a whole population on how it all works to help them avoid the mass surveillance trap?

bcook 10y ago
Even if everyone was fully aware of the impact that mass surveillance could have, I bet many would still not really care. I mean, a large amount of people use Facebook willingly.
- pmyjavec 10y ago
  You're kind of right but I think it's more because people believe in this manta: "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear". Which basically means, goodbye free speech and thought. Also, this is part of out of control :)
  - hga 10y ago
    I believe that as more and more atrocities happen because people made the mistake of thinking something resembling free thought still pertains, we may see changes here. This harks back to some discussions we had where people were looking at the stunning success of the US Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA) community and wondering if its model could be used in this domain, and I and I think others pointed out that that wouldn't have happened without myriad atrocities from the authorities getting us riled up in the first place. That's only barely started happening, if at all, in this domain, so the US RKBA model not yet relevant. And of course we should well hope those atrocities don't happen in the first place, victories built on bloodshed, especially of the innocent, tend to be ugly and embittering.
empath75 10y ago
More importantly, how do you stop it? These systems have the ability to destroy or compromise anybody that speaks up against them. Everyone has secrets.
- shostack 10y ago
  And if you don't, it is trivial for a motivated party to fabricate them in a realistic enough manner to fool a jury. Influx by Daniel Suarez comes to mind.
  - arm 10y ago
    Absolutely. Just looking through this¹ thread (that’s currently on the front page) reveals a few real-life examples. ―――――― ¹ — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12874587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12874587
- ignoramceisblis 10y ago
  Individual accountability.
- akvadrako 10y ago
  Indeed, everybody has secrets, so what's the big deal? If everybody's secrets were out, then it would just become the new normal. I think the privacy war is as winnable as the war on terrorism. It's better to figure out how best to build a post-privacy world then to cling to old unachievable ideals. Maybe we can get a semblance of privacy by flooding the system with so much data, real and fake, that it requires real detective work to dig up reliable information about someone.
  - lostlogin 10y ago
    Do you draw your curtains? Close doors? Close the toilet door? Do you wear clothes on a hot day? Do you leave bank statements out when friends are coming? Do you have performance appraisals publicly? Do you mind if everyone sees every email/text you ever sent? Would you be happy if your doctor saw you and treated you in the waiting room? Humans have an inherent desire for privacy a lot of the time where I am.
  - ccvannorman 10y ago
    >I think the privacy war is as winnable as the war on terrorism. You think the war on terrorism is winnable? So you predict that after some date in the future, that no one will ever commit an act of terror again forever till the end of time? I think you don't understand either of the two concepts you're equating.
Consultant32452 10y ago
Once the government took over the schools it was already too late. And that happened a long time ago. The government run public education system is always going to reinforce the party line.

bcook 10y ago

Even if everyone was fully aware of the impact that mass surveillance could have, I bet many would still not really care. I mean, a large amount of people use Facebook willingly.

pmyjavec 10y ago
You're kind of right but I think it's more because people believe in this manta: "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear". Which basically means, goodbye free speech and thought. Also, this is part of out of control :)
- hga 10y ago
  I believe that as more and more atrocities happen because people made the mistake of thinking something resembling free thought still pertains, we may see changes here. This harks back to some discussions we had where people were looking at the stunning success of the US Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA) community and wondering if its model could be used in this domain, and I and I think others pointed out that that wouldn't have happened without myriad atrocities from the authorities getting us riled up in the first place. That's only barely started happening, if at all, in this domain, so the US RKBA model not yet relevant. And of course we should well hope those atrocities don't happen in the first place, victories built on bloodshed, especially of the innocent, tend to be ugly and embittering.

empath75 10y ago

More importantly, how do you stop it? These systems have the ability to destroy or compromise anybody that speaks up against them. Everyone has secrets.

shostack 10y ago
And if you don't, it is trivial for a motivated party to fabricate them in a realistic enough manner to fool a jury. Influx by Daniel Suarez comes to mind.
- arm 10y ago
  Absolutely. Just looking through this¹ thread (that’s currently on the front page) reveals a few real-life examples. ―――――― ¹ — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12874587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12874587
ignoramceisblis 10y ago
Individual accountability.
akvadrako 10y ago
Indeed, everybody has secrets, so what's the big deal? If everybody's secrets were out, then it would just become the new normal. I think the privacy war is as winnable as the war on terrorism. It's better to figure out how best to build a post-privacy world then to cling to old unachievable ideals. Maybe we can get a semblance of privacy by flooding the system with so much data, real and fake, that it requires real detective work to dig up reliable information about someone.
- lostlogin 10y ago
  Do you draw your curtains? Close doors? Close the toilet door? Do you wear clothes on a hot day? Do you leave bank statements out when friends are coming? Do you have performance appraisals publicly? Do you mind if everyone sees every email/text you ever sent? Would you be happy if your doctor saw you and treated you in the waiting room? Humans have an inherent desire for privacy a lot of the time where I am.
- ccvannorman 10y ago
  >I think the privacy war is as winnable as the war on terrorism. You think the war on terrorism is winnable? So you predict that after some date in the future, that no one will ever commit an act of terror again forever till the end of time? I think you don't understand either of the two concepts you're equating.

Consultant32452 10y ago

Once the government took over the schools it was already too late. And that happened a long time ago. The government run public education system is always going to reinforce the party line.