4 ms·

Is there a system of government that enjoys the most success? Just curious.

dredmorbius 10y ago
The bureaucratic dynasties under the Mandate of Heaven ruled for ~3,000 years in China, ~2100 BCE until 1912. Individual dynasties lasted for 100s of years, the longest, the Zhou, for 790 years from 1046 BC to 256 BC. The English royal system has persisted with relatively little discontinuity from 1066 AD to present, some 950 years. Unless you've other criteria for "success", in which case you might care to consider what those might be.
- happy-go-lucky 10y ago
  That's helpful. I'm curious to know of a system (like democracy) that is/was enjoyed by its people and if so, it's a success IMO. I incline to the view that democracy is the best form of government, although I cannot corroborate my own statement because my knowledge of politics is poor.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    I have a similar inclination, though I strongly suspect a cultural and familiarity bias. I've been trying to go through the literature of political philosophy and dynamics, which is ... complicated. As with economics, a key point to remember is that virtually everyone writing on the topic (and most especially those who've been promoted to cultural consciousness) are promoting a model that benefits ... someone. I've found William Ophuls to be an interesting point of entry. His topic is politics within a context of ecological limits, but he has classic training (he's strongly influenced by Plato), direct experience (positions in the US foreign service), and an excellent grasp on modern (mostly 20th & 21st century) thought on ecology, limits, and the interactions of these with polity. His bibliographies are excellent, and worth publishing on their own right. I'd recommend his 1977 Ecology and the Politics of Scarcity and his more recent Plato's Revenge. The former focuses more on the ecological case, the latter more on the questions (with very few answers suggested -- he's really exploring the problem space) of how you'd construct a polity, given environmental, psychological, and social limits. I'm also starting to form some new thoughts on the role of religion as something of a social glue in vast empires over which communications might take weeks, months, or years, but in which a plausibly predictable level of trust would be found. Religion-as-trust-glue strikes me as a fundamental aspect. Curiously, instantaneous communications (and the monitoring and management that entails) allows for a near-total breakdown in such trust.
- happy-go-lucky 10y ago
  In a direct democracy, its citizens are the government and they've officials as their servants. My two cents :)
  - zigzigzag 10y ago
    You have to define success. If success is defined as social stability and wealth then there seems to be a direct correlation between localism+direct democracy and success, with Switzerland being the canonical example.
    - happy-go-lucky 10y ago
      Wow! Yes it's social stability and wealth. I know my wording was poor and/or ambiguous. I'm working and at the same time sneaking a glance at this discussion, so it shows that I can't multitask.
- douche 10y ago
  I'm not sure it is really accurate to lump 3000 years of Chinese history under a single political system. That would be roughly analogous to saying the the Egyptian political system was continuous from Thutmose to Cleopatra, because the ruler still called themselves Pharaoh. Or perhaps saying that the Western Roman Empire was continuous with the Franko-German Holy Roman Empire that followed it. There are extensive periods of discontinuity intermixed there, whether it be fracture and civil war, invasion and synthesis with various steppe peoples, the taking on of Buddhist Chakravartin mantles, etc.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    Actually, Egypt did come up when I was researching that question as another instance. The Ship of Theseus is a profound question.

The bureaucratic dynasties under the Mandate of Heaven ruled for ~3,000 years in China, ~2100 BCE until 1912. Individual dynasties lasted for 100s of years, the longest, the Zhou, for 790 years from 1046 BC to 256 BC. The English royal system has persisted with relatively little discontinuity from 1066 AD to present, some 950 years. Unless you've other criteria for "success", in which case you might care to consider what those might be.

happy-go-lucky 10y ago
That's helpful. I'm curious to know of a system (like democracy) that is/was enjoyed by its people and if so, it's a success IMO. I incline to the view that democracy is the best form of government, although I cannot corroborate my own statement because my knowledge of politics is poor.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  I have a similar inclination, though I strongly suspect a cultural and familiarity bias. I've been trying to go through the literature of political philosophy and dynamics, which is ... complicated. As with economics, a key point to remember is that virtually everyone writing on the topic (and most especially those who've been promoted to cultural consciousness) are promoting a model that benefits ... someone. I've found William Ophuls to be an interesting point of entry. His topic is politics within a context of ecological limits, but he has classic training (he's strongly influenced by Plato), direct experience (positions in the US foreign service), and an excellent grasp on modern (mostly 20th & 21st century) thought on ecology, limits, and the interactions of these with polity. His bibliographies are excellent, and worth publishing on their own right. I'd recommend his 1977 Ecology and the Politics of Scarcity and his more recent Plato's Revenge. The former focuses more on the ecological case, the latter more on the questions (with very few answers suggested -- he's really exploring the problem space) of how you'd construct a polity, given environmental, psychological, and social limits. I'm also starting to form some new thoughts on the role of religion as something of a social glue in vast empires over which communications might take weeks, months, or years, but in which a plausibly predictable level of trust would be found. Religion-as-trust-glue strikes me as a fundamental aspect. Curiously, instantaneous communications (and the monitoring and management that entails) allows for a near-total breakdown in such trust.
happy-go-lucky 10y ago
In a direct democracy, its citizens are the government and they've officials as their servants. My two cents :)
- zigzigzag 10y ago
  You have to define success. If success is defined as social stability and wealth then there seems to be a direct correlation between localism+direct democracy and success, with Switzerland being the canonical example.
  - happy-go-lucky 10y ago
    Wow! Yes it's social stability and wealth. I know my wording was poor and/or ambiguous. I'm working and at the same time sneaking a glance at this discussion, so it shows that I can't multitask.
douche 10y ago
I'm not sure it is really accurate to lump 3000 years of Chinese history under a single political system. That would be roughly analogous to saying the the Egyptian political system was continuous from Thutmose to Cleopatra, because the ruler still called themselves Pharaoh. Or perhaps saying that the Western Roman Empire was continuous with the Franko-German Holy Roman Empire that followed it. There are extensive periods of discontinuity intermixed there, whether it be fracture and civil war, invasion and synthesis with various steppe peoples, the taking on of Buddhist Chakravartin mantles, etc.
- dredmorbius 10y ago
  Actually, Egypt did come up when I was researching that question as another instance. The Ship of Theseus is a profound question.