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"3. Deep Google integration - This shouldn’t be surprising in any way, but having Google built into pretty much everything you do on the phone is seriously usef

"3. Deep Google integration - This shouldn’t be surprising in any way, but having Google built into pretty much everything you do on the phone is seriously useful." This is my main sticking point with Android lately. I would much rather have a stock Android OS + device from Google, and then add the few Google services I want. Instead Google is getting more and more baked into everything, and understanding how my data is being used is becoming more difficult - and this has me worried.

nowayyeah 10y ago
> and this has me worried. You are among the few (yes yes even here on HN). And google doesn't make money with you. So who cares?
- fweespeech 10y ago
  He is not one of the few. People have pushed this "You are paranoid, no one is out to get you" narrative since the 90s. Everyone has something to hide, even if its just their sex life or beliefs that aren't politically favored that might affect your employment.
  - Karunamon 10y ago
    <post class="devils-advocate"> And yet not one single instance of Google misusing their collected advertising info exists. All of the dumping on Google Services has, to the day I write this, proven to be absolute FUD without a single concrete thing to point at.
    - marricks 10y ago
      Well that system is partly to thank for the rich info they are forced to give up for secret court orders from the US government, so I'd say there are some.
    - kinkdr 10y ago
      “Past performance does not guarantee future results” I don't have a single bad thing to say about Google, but that doesn't mean that I am not afraid of their power and I don't dread the day that the current management will not be there to keep them in check. And sooner or later that day will come.
      - Karunamon 10y ago
        Your last statement is a pretty blatant slippery slope fallacy.
        kinkdr 10y ago
        > Your last statement is a pretty blatant slippery slope fallacy. Which one? In which way is it a fallacy?
        Karunamon 10y ago
        "And sooner or later that day will come." You have no specific insight on the behavior of Google's future leadership team, so the assertion that Google will necessarily start abusing their users at some point in the future is unsupported. (Apologies if this is coming off a bit blunt, there's just not much else to say)
        kinkdr 10y ago
        http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/98444 http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/98444 :D
        kinkdr 10y ago
        You are right.
    - josephg 10y ago
      The threat model isn't google. And I believe that google's engineers are more than up to the task of protecting their servers from everyday hackers. The threat I'm worried about is the surveillance arm of the US government. The small glimpses we've seen are frightening - for example, they spliced a cable between two google data centers and recorded (some? all?) of the traffic travelling between them. This particular hole has since been plugged (google encrypts between-data-center traffic now), but we simply don't know what the US government's capabilities are. This isn't paranoia stuff - they really do this kind of thing. And even if google manages to 'go dark' to the NSA, the US government can just legally demand access to all of our data. And block google from telling us that the data intrusion happened. Its funny you mention FUD. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt is exactly how I feel about trusting google (and by extension the US government) with every email, search, voice, in-app text in android, phone call and so on that I've ever made. As a non-US citizen, I have even fewer protections and I can't fight this politically. But I can give my money to Apple instead. So thats what I do.
    - fweespeech 10y ago
      > And yet not one single instance of Google misusing their collected advertising info exists. All of the dumping on Google Services has, to the day I write this, proven to be absolute FUD without a single concrete thing to point at. --- http://www.theweek.co.uk/google/11581/google-worker-fired-for-stalking-teen-gmail-users http://www.theweek.co.uk/google/11581/google-worker-fired-fo... > But further examples of Barksdale's abuse of his privileges were more serious. Earlier this spring, he viewed call logs from Google Voice in order to identify the girlfriend of a 15-year-old boy, who had refused to name her. Barksdale then taunted the boy and threatened to call his girlfriend. --- Not a single instance of a Google employee misusing info? Not one you say? A failure of internal controls qualifies as a problem just as serious as intentional abuse of it.
      - Karunamon 10y ago
        You conveniently left out the word "advertising". Employees misusing admin access is a threat with any company you may do business with.
        fweespeech 10y ago
        > You conveniently left out the word "advertising". Employees misusing admin access is a threat with any company you may do business with. Then you shouldn't have replied to me and changed the context? The context was information in Google's possession. You tried to narrow it to advertising after I replied which is, at best, silly. EDIT: > ..did you read the original post? You replied to me and tried to plays devil advocate. The context of my words is the one that is relevant, not your attempt to shift the goal posts into some narrow land of the absurd where you get to pretend the fact information Google collects ultimately gets abused isn't a privacy problem. So just stop, honestly. Your position as absurd as storing plain text passwords because "Well, there has never been an official policy of abusing that information." Rogue admins, hackers, etc. are all valid threats to privacy when the information is stored in an easily transportable form and the fact that isn't obvious to you terrifies me that you are somehow a professional sysadmin.
        10y ago
  - jonathansizz 10y ago
    People have pushed this "You are paranoid, no one is out to get you" narrative since the 90s. And nobody has got you since the 90s. When will it happen? And when it does, what will 'it' be?
marricks 10y ago
With google stepping away from masking your ad profile it is even more troubling... Apple doesn't get enough praise for protecting user's privacy IMO, or perhaps it's just really something most people don't care about...
- uabstraction 10y ago
  Beyond their occasional public stands such as the San Bernardino case, I don't think Apple does enough to market how this is useful to the average end user. In fact, as a free software enthusiast who has never even considered getting an iPhone, the privacy issue has me seriously considering getting one (though not the 7!) when my Nexus 5x succumbs to entropy. There are a few technical issues I need to work out before I make the change though. First, I need to get macOS running natively on my workstation so I can install my own software on the phone, as I'm not running out to get a MacBook for this single need. Second, I need a root shell.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - oridecon 10y ago
    I'm in a similar position, I considered changing to an iPhone but in the end it's just half-measure. There's Ubuntu Phone, KDE Plasma, Copperhead and others but they don't feel like a good solution. The problem is always the same: no apps. It doesn't matter if I can install 99/100 apps I need but the one I can't is a messenger one of my clients requires me to use. Or if I can't really rely on a compatibility layer like MicroG, since Android is not that open anymore.
    - uabstraction 10y ago
      Hell, I'd take a solid foundation with no apps (aside from a media player, browser, SMS, and dialer) in a heartbeat. What makes the alternatives so problematic is the complete lack of support from OEMs. These OSes exist today, and I'd like to use them, but they're typically limited to a very small handful of (typically obsolete) devices. As long as this is the case, they'll have a lot of trouble finding enough developers and users. If we could simply link our own kernels against these drivers the way we do with the nvidia driver and DKMS on desktops, it would be a revolutionary step forward for alt smartphone OSes. We could start working on userland instead of spending so much time devising hacks to simply get graphics and radio working one handset at a time. Unfortunately, the OEMs couldn't care less and would much rather our phones become e-waste than eat into next year's sales figures. Until then, we're pretty much at the mercy of Apple and Google :(
rhinoceraptor 10y ago
Why else would Android exist than to get people (and their sweet, sweet user data) into the Google ecosystem?
- toomuchtodo 10y ago
  To protect mobile search revenue. I get what you meant, I'm just saying Google doesn't need your location history and your assorted other meta data to profit off you. They just need to ensure Apple can never close the door on search to them.
  - threeseed 10y ago
    Google is in competition with Facebook who have tremendous amounts of data available for advertisers to use. So yes they do feel the need to collect as much data as possible.
josephg 10y ago
I moved from Android to iOS last year for this exact reason. Using android over a few versions felt like a slow slippery slope of access prompts giving permission for google to use ever more personal data about me and my phone. The final straw for me was learning that google uploads and stores audio recordings of everything I've ever said into google now[1]. A year ago when I got my iphone I deleted all of the historical voice data that google stored. Just now, In the process of finding the google activity link below, I've learned that all my deleted voice clips have magically undeleted themselves. I've been very happy with iOS - there's some little UI gripes, but for me the biggest feature is Tim Cook standing up to the US government on behalf of privacy. I'm convinced that as an organisation Google just doesn't understand what privacy is or why its important to people. With all the new deep app intelligence features in android, I shudder to think about simply how much data google might be storing about its users. I'm very happy to be out. [1] https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity?product=29 https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity?product=29
- theswaagar 10y ago
  If I'm not mistaken doesn't Apple also record and upload everything you've ever said to Siri?
  - hellofunk 10y ago
    Yes. But it does not have your identity attached to the upload.
  - simonh 10y ago
    Apple keeps the data for up to two years, but from 6 months its associated with a random ID code so it's not personally identifiable. At least that's how it used to be done. They have been talking about using more advanced statistical anonymization techniques recently but I don't know if they are used for Siri.
- deadbunny 10y ago
  Apple did not stand up for user privacy, they stood up against inserting a backdoor into their crypto and played it off in the media as a stand for privacy. Apple have gladly handed over user info on dozens of occasions (in accordance with the law).
at-fates-hands 10y ago
>> I would much rather have a stock Android OS + device from Google There are tons of stock Android phones you can get from "off market" manufacturers The Nexbit Robin: https://www.nextbit.com/ https://www.nextbit.com/ The OnePlus two or three: https://oneplus.net/2 https://oneplus.net/2 , https://oneplus.net/3 https://oneplus.net/3 Xiomi Mi Note: http://www.mi.com/en/minote/ http://www.mi.com/en/minote/ ZTE Axon 7: https://www.zteusa.com/axon7/ https://www.zteusa.com/axon7/ Obi SJ1.5: http://www.obiworldphone.com/global/sj1.5 http://www.obiworldphone.com/global/sj1.5 VeryKool (InfoSonic): https://www.verykool.net/Products/Smart_Phones/ https://www.verykool.net/Products/Smart_Phones/ As far as I know, these are all "stock" and only come with the smattering of Google apps, and absolutely none of the carrier bloatware you usually get. When I got my OnePlus Two, all it had on it were maybe 6 Google apps and that's it, nothing more, nothing less. I've been ecstatic with the performance of the phone and only having the apps you really want on the phone makes it much easier to use. Plus, you can completely customize it, put a custom ROM on it and turn off all the Google tracking stuff. I have way more piece of mind since I got it.
- AjithAntony 10y ago
  The smatttering of any of the google apps is all you need. One you contaminate the device with google and google play services, then all bets are off. Your opportunities to turn off google tracking are the same for these as the pixel or other nexus phones. Like don't use the google "now" or "pixel" launchers. Turn off google on tap. Etc..

nowayyeah 10y ago

> and this has me worried. You are among the few (yes yes even here on HN). And google doesn't make money with you. So who cares?

fweespeech 10y ago
He is not one of the few. People have pushed this "You are paranoid, no one is out to get you" narrative since the 90s. Everyone has something to hide, even if its just their sex life or beliefs that aren't politically favored that might affect your employment.
- Karunamon 10y ago
  <post class="devils-advocate"> And yet not one single instance of Google misusing their collected advertising info exists. All of the dumping on Google Services has, to the day I write this, proven to be absolute FUD without a single concrete thing to point at.
  - marricks 10y ago
    Well that system is partly to thank for the rich info they are forced to give up for secret court orders from the US government, so I'd say there are some.
  - kinkdr 10y ago
    “Past performance does not guarantee future results” I don't have a single bad thing to say about Google, but that doesn't mean that I am not afraid of their power and I don't dread the day that the current management will not be there to keep them in check. And sooner or later that day will come.
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      Your last statement is a pretty blatant slippery slope fallacy.
      - kinkdr 10y ago
        > Your last statement is a pretty blatant slippery slope fallacy. Which one? In which way is it a fallacy?
        Karunamon 10y ago
        "And sooner or later that day will come." You have no specific insight on the behavior of Google's future leadership team, so the assertion that Google will necessarily start abusing their users at some point in the future is unsupported. (Apologies if this is coming off a bit blunt, there's just not much else to say)
        kinkdr 10y ago
        http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/98444 http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/98444 :D
        kinkdr 10y ago
        You are right.
  - josephg 10y ago
    The threat model isn't google. And I believe that google's engineers are more than up to the task of protecting their servers from everyday hackers. The threat I'm worried about is the surveillance arm of the US government. The small glimpses we've seen are frightening - for example, they spliced a cable between two google data centers and recorded (some? all?) of the traffic travelling between them. This particular hole has since been plugged (google encrypts between-data-center traffic now), but we simply don't know what the US government's capabilities are. This isn't paranoia stuff - they really do this kind of thing. And even if google manages to 'go dark' to the NSA, the US government can just legally demand access to all of our data. And block google from telling us that the data intrusion happened. Its funny you mention FUD. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt is exactly how I feel about trusting google (and by extension the US government) with every email, search, voice, in-app text in android, phone call and so on that I've ever made. As a non-US citizen, I have even fewer protections and I can't fight this politically. But I can give my money to Apple instead. So thats what I do.
  - fweespeech 10y ago
    > And yet not one single instance of Google misusing their collected advertising info exists. All of the dumping on Google Services has, to the day I write this, proven to be absolute FUD without a single concrete thing to point at. --- http://www.theweek.co.uk/google/11581/google-worker-fired-for-stalking-teen-gmail-users http://www.theweek.co.uk/google/11581/google-worker-fired-fo... > But further examples of Barksdale's abuse of his privileges were more serious. Earlier this spring, he viewed call logs from Google Voice in order to identify the girlfriend of a 15-year-old boy, who had refused to name her. Barksdale then taunted the boy and threatened to call his girlfriend. --- Not a single instance of a Google employee misusing info? Not one you say? A failure of internal controls qualifies as a problem just as serious as intentional abuse of it.
    - Karunamon 10y ago
      You conveniently left out the word "advertising". Employees misusing admin access is a threat with any company you may do business with.
      - fweespeech 10y ago
        > You conveniently left out the word "advertising". Employees misusing admin access is a threat with any company you may do business with. Then you shouldn't have replied to me and changed the context? The context was information in Google's possession. You tried to narrow it to advertising after I replied which is, at best, silly. EDIT: > ..did you read the original post? You replied to me and tried to plays devil advocate. The context of my words is the one that is relevant, not your attempt to shift the goal posts into some narrow land of the absurd where you get to pretend the fact information Google collects ultimately gets abused isn't a privacy problem. So just stop, honestly. Your position as absurd as storing plain text passwords because "Well, there has never been an official policy of abusing that information." Rogue admins, hackers, etc. are all valid threats to privacy when the information is stored in an easily transportable form and the fact that isn't obvious to you terrifies me that you are somehow a professional sysadmin.
        10y ago
- jonathansizz 10y ago
  People have pushed this "You are paranoid, no one is out to get you" narrative since the 90s. And nobody has got you since the 90s. When will it happen? And when it does, what will 'it' be?

marricks 10y ago

With google stepping away from masking your ad profile it is even more troubling... Apple doesn't get enough praise for protecting user's privacy IMO, or perhaps it's just really something most people don't care about...

uabstraction 10y ago
Beyond their occasional public stands such as the San Bernardino case, I don't think Apple does enough to market how this is useful to the average end user. In fact, as a free software enthusiast who has never even considered getting an iPhone, the privacy issue has me seriously considering getting one (though not the 7!) when my Nexus 5x succumbs to entropy. There are a few technical issues I need to work out before I make the change though. First, I need to get macOS running natively on my workstation so I can install my own software on the phone, as I'm not running out to get a MacBook for this single need. Second, I need a root shell.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- oridecon 10y ago
  I'm in a similar position, I considered changing to an iPhone but in the end it's just half-measure. There's Ubuntu Phone, KDE Plasma, Copperhead and others but they don't feel like a good solution. The problem is always the same: no apps. It doesn't matter if I can install 99/100 apps I need but the one I can't is a messenger one of my clients requires me to use. Or if I can't really rely on a compatibility layer like MicroG, since Android is not that open anymore.
  - uabstraction 10y ago
    Hell, I'd take a solid foundation with no apps (aside from a media player, browser, SMS, and dialer) in a heartbeat. What makes the alternatives so problematic is the complete lack of support from OEMs. These OSes exist today, and I'd like to use them, but they're typically limited to a very small handful of (typically obsolete) devices. As long as this is the case, they'll have a lot of trouble finding enough developers and users. If we could simply link our own kernels against these drivers the way we do with the nvidia driver and DKMS on desktops, it would be a revolutionary step forward for alt smartphone OSes. We could start working on userland instead of spending so much time devising hacks to simply get graphics and radio working one handset at a time. Unfortunately, the OEMs couldn't care less and would much rather our phones become e-waste than eat into next year's sales figures. Until then, we're pretty much at the mercy of Apple and Google :(

rhinoceraptor 10y ago

Why else would Android exist than to get people (and their sweet, sweet user data) into the Google ecosystem?

toomuchtodo 10y ago
To protect mobile search revenue. I get what you meant, I'm just saying Google doesn't need your location history and your assorted other meta data to profit off you. They just need to ensure Apple can never close the door on search to them.
- threeseed 10y ago
  Google is in competition with Facebook who have tremendous amounts of data available for advertisers to use. So yes they do feel the need to collect as much data as possible.

josephg 10y ago

I moved from Android to iOS last year for this exact reason. Using android over a few versions felt like a slow slippery slope of access prompts giving permission for google to use ever more personal data about me and my phone. The final straw for me was learning that google uploads and stores audio recordings of everything I've ever said into google now[1]. A year ago when I got my iphone I deleted all of the historical voice data that google stored. Just now, In the process of finding the google activity link below, I've learned that all my deleted voice clips have magically undeleted themselves. I've been very happy with iOS - there's some little UI gripes, but for me the biggest feature is Tim Cook standing up to the US government on behalf of privacy. I'm convinced that as an organisation Google just doesn't understand what privacy is or why its important to people. With all the new deep app intelligence features in android, I shudder to think about simply how much data google might be storing about its users. I'm very happy to be out. [1] https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity?product=29 https://myactivity.google.com/myactivity?product=29

theswaagar 10y ago
If I'm not mistaken doesn't Apple also record and upload everything you've ever said to Siri?
- hellofunk 10y ago
  Yes. But it does not have your identity attached to the upload.
- simonh 10y ago
  Apple keeps the data for up to two years, but from 6 months its associated with a random ID code so it's not personally identifiable. At least that's how it used to be done. They have been talking about using more advanced statistical anonymization techniques recently but I don't know if they are used for Siri.
deadbunny 10y ago
Apple did not stand up for user privacy, they stood up against inserting a backdoor into their crypto and played it off in the media as a stand for privacy. Apple have gladly handed over user info on dozens of occasions (in accordance with the law).

at-fates-hands 10y ago

>> I would much rather have a stock Android OS + device from Google There are tons of stock Android phones you can get from "off market" manufacturers The Nexbit Robin: https://www.nextbit.com/ https://www.nextbit.com/ The OnePlus two or three: https://oneplus.net/2 https://oneplus.net/2 , https://oneplus.net/3 https://oneplus.net/3 Xiomi Mi Note: http://www.mi.com/en/minote/ http://www.mi.com/en/minote/ ZTE Axon 7: https://www.zteusa.com/axon7/ https://www.zteusa.com/axon7/ Obi SJ1.5: http://www.obiworldphone.com/global/sj1.5 http://www.obiworldphone.com/global/sj1.5 VeryKool (InfoSonic): https://www.verykool.net/Products/Smart_Phones/ https://www.verykool.net/Products/Smart_Phones/ As far as I know, these are all "stock" and only come with the smattering of Google apps, and absolutely none of the carrier bloatware you usually get. When I got my OnePlus Two, all it had on it were maybe 6 Google apps and that's it, nothing more, nothing less. I've been ecstatic with the performance of the phone and only having the apps you really want on the phone makes it much easier to use. Plus, you can completely customize it, put a custom ROM on it and turn off all the Google tracking stuff. I have way more piece of mind since I got it.

AjithAntony 10y ago
The smatttering of any of the google apps is all you need. One you contaminate the device with google and google play services, then all bets are off. Your opportunities to turn off google tracking are the same for these as the pixel or other nexus phones. Like don't use the google "now" or "pixel" launchers. Turn off google on tap. Etc..