8 ms·

The modern world has such a ridiculous disconnect. The people fleeing to remote places because of instability are the very same people causing these issues in t

The modern world has such a ridiculous disconnect. The people fleeing to remote places because of instability are the very same people causing these issues in the first place. Hedge fund managers selling toxic assets bemoaning the uncertainty of the financial world? And what will your island paradise look like with no one to trade with or if the world economy collapses? NZ doesn't have much of an economy in itself, what are you going to do, go back to farming? It's even more hilarious because the reason NZ is a desirable place to live is because there is little money in politics and there are few class distinctions. How will that change when all the billionaires move there and want to get their way (and are used to the world conforming to the bank account)? Just another place for the wealthy elite of the world to slowly ruin, maybe the next step is the moon? The system is rapidly growing out of control and no one seems to be able to stop or halt the insanity. It's like we're all marching towards oblivion and everyone knows it but no one has the will to turn the ship around because the system incentivizes short term greed.

beachstartup 10y ago
> And what will your island paradise look like with no one to trade with or if your financial firm collapses? NZ doesn't have much of an economy in itself, what are you going to do, go back to farming? these locations aren't just for vacations. they are stocked with supplies and probably guns and ammo. if the SHTF, they'll be on the first (private jet) flight out of london, hk, zurich, or new york. why do you think they chose a place so remote? there are nicer places a lot closer. they just don't have the infrastructure that new zealand has, and the natural oceanic protection. as a bonus, they also have a military that is closely tied to the commonwealth crown. how convenient. it used to be normal to prepare for disaster. in california they taught us how to do it in elementary school in the 90s, for earthquakes. now people think it's crazy. it's not. normal people do this too. who do you think is buying up all the ammo before elections? i know people who have boats, trucks, etc. for the purposes of preparedness. one thing a fund manager or CEO knows how to do is hedge against risks.
- lumberjack 10y ago
  >normal people do this too. who do you think is buying up all the ammo before elections? The people behind the prepping industry are just affiliate marketers for the most part.
  - hga 10y ago
    Errr, it's a lot more complicated than that. People in the US have been buying up ammo at > 10 billion (thousand million) rounds/year rates for more than a decade now (US civilian production is > 12 billion/year, which doesn't count imports and not, I think, surplus and seconds from Lake City production), and I haven't noticed big movements before elections (after, for sure).
- LouisSayers 10y ago
  "as a bonus, they also have a military that is closely tied to the commonwealth crown. how convenient." ... well seeming NZ is a commonwealth country it's not some convenience, it's history. And it sounds like you think NZ has some huge military power. I think we have like one jet plane, so stock all the guns you want, I imagine in the case all the allies die and Russia invades we'd probably just give them a welcome ceremony.
  - Koshkin 10y ago
    > Russia invades Unless they are using one of those world maps...
  - beachstartup 10y ago
    i didn't mean 'how convenient' in any sarcastic way, i was literally saying.. it's convenient that your getaway island also has a military. most don't. and nobody said any of it was rational. it's just what people do. i live in earthquake country so i have water and canned food and a means of defense. some people have taken this mindset to an extreme, including buying large homes on remote island countries and a private jet for trips there.
- gaius 10y ago
arcanus 10y ago
> The modern world has such a ridiculous disconnect. Agreed. This, to me, is the essence of cyberpunk. To Gibson, 'The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed' > Just another place for the wealthy elite of the world to slowly ruin, maybe the next step is the moon? Mars, haven't you heard? > The system is rapidly growing out of control and no one seems to be able to stop or halt the insanity. Worse, they are complicit in it. This entire situation amounts to a local minimum, because everyone is working towards their own short term interests. I don't see how we break that cycle, however. The trends are global. I'll admit I'm certainly not doing my part: I'm leaving academia and taking my signing bonus, RSUs, etc. and joining a mega-corp.
- rjzzleep 10y ago
  You know, everyone blames the mega rich. I blame everyone else. If you're completely honest and you assume that shits going to hit the fan, would you care more about the happiness of 1 billion random people you've never met or the happiness of 100 that you know? On paper you'll say 1 billion, but in reality if someone shoots your mother you cry, if someone shoots someone in Syria you most likely won't ever notice. But here's a list of things partly responsible: 1. The mere idea that justice is something that will be served at some point is ludicrous. There's no universal concept of morality to begin with. The more money you have, the less like you are to be indicted or pay penalties for virtually anything. Why would you give that might away? 2. That disgusting cult of happiness that is more prevalent in San Francisco than anywhere else in the world is the very foundation of forcing people to be happy with what they have. Institutions like Landmark Forum that are actually requirements for certain management positions make sure that people don't actually critique or change things that are messed up. 3. Everyone knows that we're eating up our resources and dump the rest into the seas all the while doing so. The result is that a lot of things available today will be luxury super rich items in the not too distant future. Tuna and Cocoa amongst them(just wait and see). If I had money I'd invest in huge warehouses to make money with those things in 20-30 years. That's exactly what superwealthy do. There have been more than one buyouts in bankrupt countries in the last couple of years. Buying resources while everyone is hoping for the utopia where we can create something from nothing. 4. The only way this stuff could possibly change we pull the handbreak right now. But it's absurd to think that that's a possibility. Nobody even so much dares to talk about the consequences of a full stop change. If you do, you're the pessimist. People don't want a change of course, they want the illusion of change so that can stay happy until they crash in the cement wall at 200mp/h. At the very least I have enough Schadenfreude in me to always enjoy these arguably predictable changes like the refugee "crisis" in europe
forgetsusername 10y ago
>The people fleeing to remote places because of instability are the very same people causing these issues in the first place. Are they the same? How do you know? The finance world is a big place. In Canada alone it employs over 1 million people, which is one quarter the population of New Zealand. Crappy software and models also contributed to the crisis (and other crises). Do you build either? Do you accept blame for your profession?
- willtim 10y ago
  Great points. We are a profession that would rather use Python instead of more principled choices such as OCaml/Haskell, because it is superficially easier. I chose Python as an example here as that is what Knights Capital were using. I'm sure even the folk behind Python would admit it may have problems scaling to large complex algorithmic trading systems.
  - lucozade 10y ago
    KC blew up because someone copied the wrong software to their deployment servers. If Haskell's typesystem has solved that problem then I'm sure it would have a lot more takers. On the flip side, if Jane Street were to screw up I hope no-one would blame OCaml as it would more likely be someone making a mistake. Programming languages can be poor or geat but you need to wield them wisely.
    - willtim 10y ago
      I thought it was more the result of an accumulation of mistakes, for example dead code and repurposing boolean flags (we can do better with types).
totalZero 10y ago
Hedge fund managers are usually not causing collapses, they just see the reasons why a collapse is likely and pile in before everyone else knows what's going on. Black Wednesday 1992 is a very good example of what I mean. It's too easy to blame and hate hedge fund managers as a group, but personally the only ones I detest are the lawbreakers. Apart from them, these guys have virtues and vices just like everyone else.
- triplesec 10y ago
  I think your comment is missing the point here: their actions themselves have consequence for the market. Indeed, their existence and their practices have an effect on the market even if they don't act. Their existence and expectations do that alone. 'If I don't do it, somebody else will', which is a poor selfish excuse for sociopathic values.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    Hedge funcs, i.e. betting against the herd, has a moderating influence, not a destabilizing one.
    - nostrademons 10y ago
      If they actually did bet against the herd. "Hedge fund" used to mean a fund that actually hedged their bets, but there's no law that says they have to, and a number of them just bet. What seems to happen is that during boom times, a lot of unskilled and unaware of it money managers get into the market, and they tend to bet with the crowd. We get a big bubble as a result, the bubble pops, and all the shitty fund managers get flushed out of the market. Then we get several years of stability as the prudent money managers who thought for themselves rule the show, until their performance attracts new entrants who don't know what they're doing, and the cycle repeats. I actually think that we're in one of those prudent periods right now - most securities seem fairly valued, at least now that the unicorn bubble is deflating. But in 05-08? I worked in financial software then, and a number of my peers (straight out of college!) were hedge fund managers. There were some good ones, but many of them had no business being near anyone's retirement fund.
wyager 10y ago
> The people fleeing to remote places because of instability are the very same people causing these issues in the first place. Do you have any evidence for this, or are you just spouting generic edgy anti-capitalist tag lines? The vast majority of crime in first-world nations is associated with generic poverty-related activity like gang violence, not imaginary cabals of evil hedge fund managers.
- drzaiusapelord 10y ago
  This. Also a lot of debt issues are government caused like the crippling and non-dischargable student loans the USG gives teenagers to the tune of six figures. Or all the incentives and propaganda for those who can't afford to buy homes or other large purchases. Or government waste and corruption and war. Or out of control entitlement programs and other welfare abuse. And anti-investment, anti-prosperity, high tax, and high regulatory environments that guarantee places like the south side of Chicago will never, ever recover. The blame pie for economic issues and social issues is pretty big and 'hedge fund managers' are going to be a very tiny piece. The institutions you may hold dear may be the ones with the largest piece. That should be sobering realization on top of the realization that we tried not-capitalism in the early to late 20th century in some countries and it was responsible for nearly causing WWIII, 100m+ dead, and a legacy of human right abuses that humanity has not seen since or before. Be careful what you wish fore. The society hanging investment managers, business owners, and guys trying to make a few bucks so their kids can goto disneyworld is not a compassionate society leading to utopia, in fact, its the opposite. History has proven this over and over.
harryh 10y ago
It's amazing how the narrative of paradise, sin, and the need to repent before the world goes to hell is so hard wired into the human psyche. Almost everyone seems to believe it in some form or another.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
eli_gottlieb 10y ago
>The system is rapidly growing out of control and no one seems to be able to stop or halt the insanity. It's like we're all marching towards oblivion and everyone knows it but no one has the will to turn the ship around because the system incentivizes short term greed. Except for those of us shoving all the rest of you towards safety and being called crazy for our troubles, yeah.
zem 10y ago
ben elton's "stark" is a great if heavily satirical novel on these themes: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/242242.Stark http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/242242.Stark
cconcepts 10y ago
> what are you going to do, go back to farming? Oh no! How will we make money so we can buy food to eat!?....oh wait
Florin_Andrei 10y ago
> the system incentivizes short term greed This is the alpha and the omega of the whole thing.
- Nydhal 10y ago
  Opportunistic vs Equilibrium :https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory
Mz 10y ago
So much acerbic criticism of the mega wealthy. Odds are good there are a billion people that would consider you crazy rich. Yet, I bet you have not peed on a tree today - and will also dismiss the idea as not any kind of means to "turn the ship around." But you should totally go pee on a tree instead of pointing fingers while doing nothing to turn the ship around yourself. http://peeonatree.blogspot.com/ http://peeonatree.blogspot.com/
BEEdwards 10y ago
Which way do we turn the ship and how do we convince everyone or even just enough of everyone? That is an honest no snark question. The fact is that there are people with will and interest and they are working hard every single day, but they're all pulling in disparate even opposite directions.
cloudjacker 10y ago
What exactly are you concerned about here, ruin? Insanity? It is written like a generic rail against capitalism but seems to be more concerned about assets trading at a tenth of today's prices It'll be alright

beachstartup 10y ago

> And what will your island paradise look like with no one to trade with or if your financial firm collapses? NZ doesn't have much of an economy in itself, what are you going to do, go back to farming? these locations aren't just for vacations. they are stocked with supplies and probably guns and ammo. if the SHTF, they'll be on the first (private jet) flight out of london, hk, zurich, or new york. why do you think they chose a place so remote? there are nicer places a lot closer. they just don't have the infrastructure that new zealand has, and the natural oceanic protection. as a bonus, they also have a military that is closely tied to the commonwealth crown. how convenient. it used to be normal to prepare for disaster. in california they taught us how to do it in elementary school in the 90s, for earthquakes. now people think it's crazy. it's not. normal people do this too. who do you think is buying up all the ammo before elections? i know people who have boats, trucks, etc. for the purposes of preparedness. one thing a fund manager or CEO knows how to do is hedge against risks.

lumberjack 10y ago
>normal people do this too. who do you think is buying up all the ammo before elections? The people behind the prepping industry are just affiliate marketers for the most part.
- hga 10y ago
  Errr, it's a lot more complicated than that. People in the US have been buying up ammo at > 10 billion (thousand million) rounds/year rates for more than a decade now (US civilian production is > 12 billion/year, which doesn't count imports and not, I think, surplus and seconds from Lake City production), and I haven't noticed big movements before elections (after, for sure).
LouisSayers 10y ago
"as a bonus, they also have a military that is closely tied to the commonwealth crown. how convenient." ... well seeming NZ is a commonwealth country it's not some convenience, it's history. And it sounds like you think NZ has some huge military power. I think we have like one jet plane, so stock all the guns you want, I imagine in the case all the allies die and Russia invades we'd probably just give them a welcome ceremony.
- Koshkin 10y ago
  > Russia invades Unless they are using one of those world maps...
- beachstartup 10y ago
  i didn't mean 'how convenient' in any sarcastic way, i was literally saying.. it's convenient that your getaway island also has a military. most don't. and nobody said any of it was rational. it's just what people do. i live in earthquake country so i have water and canned food and a means of defense. some people have taken this mindset to an extreme, including buying large homes on remote island countries and a private jet for trips there.
gaius 10y ago

arcanus 10y ago

> The modern world has such a ridiculous disconnect. Agreed. This, to me, is the essence of cyberpunk. To Gibson, 'The future is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed' > Just another place for the wealthy elite of the world to slowly ruin, maybe the next step is the moon? Mars, haven't you heard? > The system is rapidly growing out of control and no one seems to be able to stop or halt the insanity. Worse, they are complicit in it. This entire situation amounts to a local minimum, because everyone is working towards their own short term interests. I don't see how we break that cycle, however. The trends are global. I'll admit I'm certainly not doing my part: I'm leaving academia and taking my signing bonus, RSUs, etc. and joining a mega-corp.

rjzzleep 10y ago
You know, everyone blames the mega rich. I blame everyone else. If you're completely honest and you assume that shits going to hit the fan, would you care more about the happiness of 1 billion random people you've never met or the happiness of 100 that you know? On paper you'll say 1 billion, but in reality if someone shoots your mother you cry, if someone shoots someone in Syria you most likely won't ever notice. But here's a list of things partly responsible: 1. The mere idea that justice is something that will be served at some point is ludicrous. There's no universal concept of morality to begin with. The more money you have, the less like you are to be indicted or pay penalties for virtually anything. Why would you give that might away? 2. That disgusting cult of happiness that is more prevalent in San Francisco than anywhere else in the world is the very foundation of forcing people to be happy with what they have. Institutions like Landmark Forum that are actually requirements for certain management positions make sure that people don't actually critique or change things that are messed up. 3. Everyone knows that we're eating up our resources and dump the rest into the seas all the while doing so. The result is that a lot of things available today will be luxury super rich items in the not too distant future. Tuna and Cocoa amongst them(just wait and see). If I had money I'd invest in huge warehouses to make money with those things in 20-30 years. That's exactly what superwealthy do. There have been more than one buyouts in bankrupt countries in the last couple of years. Buying resources while everyone is hoping for the utopia where we can create something from nothing. 4. The only way this stuff could possibly change we pull the handbreak right now. But it's absurd to think that that's a possibility. Nobody even so much dares to talk about the consequences of a full stop change. If you do, you're the pessimist. People don't want a change of course, they want the illusion of change so that can stay happy until they crash in the cement wall at 200mp/h. At the very least I have enough Schadenfreude in me to always enjoy these arguably predictable changes like the refugee "crisis" in europe

forgetsusername 10y ago

>The people fleeing to remote places because of instability are the very same people causing these issues in the first place. Are they the same? How do you know? The finance world is a big place. In Canada alone it employs over 1 million people, which is one quarter the population of New Zealand. Crappy software and models also contributed to the crisis (and other crises). Do you build either? Do you accept blame for your profession?

willtim 10y ago
Great points. We are a profession that would rather use Python instead of more principled choices such as OCaml/Haskell, because it is superficially easier. I chose Python as an example here as that is what Knights Capital were using. I'm sure even the folk behind Python would admit it may have problems scaling to large complex algorithmic trading systems.
- lucozade 10y ago
  KC blew up because someone copied the wrong software to their deployment servers. If Haskell's typesystem has solved that problem then I'm sure it would have a lot more takers. On the flip side, if Jane Street were to screw up I hope no-one would blame OCaml as it would more likely be someone making a mistake. Programming languages can be poor or geat but you need to wield them wisely.
  - willtim 10y ago
    I thought it was more the result of an accumulation of mistakes, for example dead code and repurposing boolean flags (we can do better with types).

totalZero 10y ago

Hedge fund managers are usually not causing collapses, they just see the reasons why a collapse is likely and pile in before everyone else knows what's going on. Black Wednesday 1992 is a very good example of what I mean. It's too easy to blame and hate hedge fund managers as a group, but personally the only ones I detest are the lawbreakers. Apart from them, these guys have virtues and vices just like everyone else.

triplesec 10y ago
I think your comment is missing the point here: their actions themselves have consequence for the market. Indeed, their existence and their practices have an effect on the market even if they don't act. Their existence and expectations do that alone. 'If I don't do it, somebody else will', which is a poor selfish excuse for sociopathic values.
- WalterBright 10y ago
  Hedge funcs, i.e. betting against the herd, has a moderating influence, not a destabilizing one.
  - nostrademons 10y ago
    If they actually did bet against the herd. "Hedge fund" used to mean a fund that actually hedged their bets, but there's no law that says they have to, and a number of them just bet. What seems to happen is that during boom times, a lot of unskilled and unaware of it money managers get into the market, and they tend to bet with the crowd. We get a big bubble as a result, the bubble pops, and all the shitty fund managers get flushed out of the market. Then we get several years of stability as the prudent money managers who thought for themselves rule the show, until their performance attracts new entrants who don't know what they're doing, and the cycle repeats. I actually think that we're in one of those prudent periods right now - most securities seem fairly valued, at least now that the unicorn bubble is deflating. But in 05-08? I worked in financial software then, and a number of my peers (straight out of college!) were hedge fund managers. There were some good ones, but many of them had no business being near anyone's retirement fund.

wyager 10y ago

> The people fleeing to remote places because of instability are the very same people causing these issues in the first place. Do you have any evidence for this, or are you just spouting generic edgy anti-capitalist tag lines? The vast majority of crime in first-world nations is associated with generic poverty-related activity like gang violence, not imaginary cabals of evil hedge fund managers.

drzaiusapelord 10y ago
This. Also a lot of debt issues are government caused like the crippling and non-dischargable student loans the USG gives teenagers to the tune of six figures. Or all the incentives and propaganda for those who can't afford to buy homes or other large purchases. Or government waste and corruption and war. Or out of control entitlement programs and other welfare abuse. And anti-investment, anti-prosperity, high tax, and high regulatory environments that guarantee places like the south side of Chicago will never, ever recover. The blame pie for economic issues and social issues is pretty big and 'hedge fund managers' are going to be a very tiny piece. The institutions you may hold dear may be the ones with the largest piece. That should be sobering realization on top of the realization that we tried not-capitalism in the early to late 20th century in some countries and it was responsible for nearly causing WWIII, 100m+ dead, and a legacy of human right abuses that humanity has not seen since or before. Be careful what you wish fore. The society hanging investment managers, business owners, and guys trying to make a few bucks so their kids can goto disneyworld is not a compassionate society leading to utopia, in fact, its the opposite. History has proven this over and over.

harryh 10y ago

It's amazing how the narrative of paradise, sin, and the need to repent before the world goes to hell is so hard wired into the human psyche. Almost everyone seems to believe it in some form or another.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

eli_gottlieb 10y ago

>The system is rapidly growing out of control and no one seems to be able to stop or halt the insanity. It's like we're all marching towards oblivion and everyone knows it but no one has the will to turn the ship around because the system incentivizes short term greed. Except for those of us shoving all the rest of you towards safety and being called crazy for our troubles, yeah.

zem 10y ago

ben elton's "stark" is a great if heavily satirical novel on these themes: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/242242.Stark http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/242242.Stark

cconcepts 10y ago

> what are you going to do, go back to farming? Oh no! How will we make money so we can buy food to eat!?....oh wait

Florin_Andrei 10y ago

> the system incentivizes short term greed This is the alpha and the omega of the whole thing.

Nydhal 10y ago
Opportunistic vs Equilibrium :https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

Mz 10y ago

So much acerbic criticism of the mega wealthy. Odds are good there are a billion people that would consider you crazy rich. Yet, I bet you have not peed on a tree today - and will also dismiss the idea as not any kind of means to "turn the ship around." But you should totally go pee on a tree instead of pointing fingers while doing nothing to turn the ship around yourself. http://peeonatree.blogspot.com/ http://peeonatree.blogspot.com/

BEEdwards 10y ago

Which way do we turn the ship and how do we convince everyone or even just enough of everyone? That is an honest no snark question. The fact is that there are people with will and interest and they are working hard every single day, but they're all pulling in disparate even opposite directions.

cloudjacker 10y ago

What exactly are you concerned about here, ruin? Insanity? It is written like a generic rail against capitalism but seems to be more concerned about assets trading at a tenth of today's prices It'll be alright