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Effectively he's bringing back apprenticeships the way they should be. It's far more useful than the current University arrangement, where 'everyone' gets to p

Effectively he's bringing back apprenticeships the way they should be. It's far more useful than the current University arrangement, where 'everyone' gets to pay money to drink for 3 years (whilst studying) and then either drop back into the market looking for useful work, or go on to spend even more time making Academia seem worthwhile. We used to be world leaders in engineering and production in the UK - now we just have students everywhere, with no jobs to go to as we import pretty much everything. Okay - slightly over-dramatic, but at least Dyson is trying to do something useful.

dbbk 10y ago
> It's far more useful than the current University arrangement, where 'everyone' gets to pay money to drink for 3 years As shallow as it sounds though, it is bloody good fun.
- arethuza 10y ago
  "pay money to drink for 3 years" Or 4 years here in Scotland - which reminds me that the university department where I studied and worked was in the Grassmarket of Edinburgh - which is an exceptional location for boozing.
- fillskills 10y ago
  The begs a question- why cant we have as much fun without paying through the nose
  - arethuza 10y ago
    Oddly enough the current situation in Scotland is that people from the rest of the UK do pay fees when attending Scottish universities but people from Scotland and the rest of the EU don't.
  - dbbk 10y ago
    Well when you consider the student loan you're technically not paying for it, the government is loaning you the money to do it, with no expectation that you will pay them back.
lima 10y ago
Germany still has apprenticeships (we call it "Ausbildung") and it's great.
pjc50 10y ago
I think that's overstating it, there's a lot of engineering in the UK. It just has a very low media profile, because it either has a foreign name on the product (Nissan!) or doesn't sell to consumers. A surprisingly large amount of it is in really unglamorous buildings in industrial estates outside cities other than London. Since the media have largely stopped bothering to leave the M25, it's invisible. (I have a pet theory based on the car industry that the really toxic thing is British labour relations; there are successful small British companies, and successful large plants with foreign owners, but all the British-managed mass-employment industries collapsed in strikes and/or were looted by the directors like MG Rover.)
- fdgdasfadsf 10y ago
  > I have a pet theory based on the car industry that the really toxic thing is British labour relations I don't think that many people will disagree with you on this theory.
  - sgt101 10y ago
    I will. Every large company in the UK has a significant union. Not every large company has failed. Some company failures have been exacerbated by unions, british leyland being one example. The really toxic thing is financial short termism. It used to be results in a year, which was very bad. Now they want results in under a quarter which is to value generation as acid to chalk.
    - fdgdasfadsf 10y ago
      Just to clarify my post was saying that the relation between union and and management is the problem - not the existence of the union. I ascribe this as much (if not more) to management than to the union.
- vkou 10y ago
  From the perspective of employees, if they didn't collapse in strikes, they would have collapsed for them due to outsourcing and automation (Which was the fate of manufacturing in America).
tankenmate 10y ago
In fact what he is setting up is very much similar to the German Mittelstand apprenticeship model; however to get similar results requires managers to change their ways, most apprenticeship trained staff in Mittelstand companies have a turnover of 2.7% (rather than up to 30% in entry level employees in US / UK).[0] This means that managers need to realise that you need good, technically solid training, and interesting work for these employees, a defined career path, and persistence and engagement rather than a fire them if I think they're even slightly off / not a good culture fit. A good cultural fit typically requires training too! Think of medieval type apprenticeships; not just on the job training but also training in how to be a productive, respectable adult. If the Dyson IoT does these things that other employers claim they want (soft skills etc) but aren't willing to train or pay for then Dyson's new venture will probably succeed handsomely in the long run. [0] http://www.economist.com/news/business/21606834-many-countries-want-mittelstand-germanys-it-not-so-easy-copy-german-lessons http://www.economist.com/news/business/21606834-many-countri... EDIT: fixed typos
- walshemj 10y ago
  In a formal trade apprenticeship you signed (a binding contract) for a number of years and if they made you redundant you could sue your master for breach of contact
- akhatri_aus 10y ago
  Unfortunately today people are fickle and will change jobs if they're just paid more. There's loyalty and cash. In Germany they still have control on their wages.
dmuneka 10y ago
This is similar to the School Leaver programmes run by large accounting firms in the UK as well. You get paid a decent amount to get accredited whilst working for the firm. The programmes could take 6 years, but at the end of it, you would be a much more valuable employee than the person who drank away 3 years of their life! Plus you'd be a qualified accountant! The downside is when all your mates are out having fun, you're being worked to the bone! Not really fun for an 18 year old.
- walshemj 10y ago
  But will these employees face a glass ceiling in there later carrears.
- dbbk 10y ago
  The downside isn't just missing out on the 'fun', but also all the soft skills you get. I feel like academia is only 50% of the university story. The rest is expanding your interests, learning independence, making friends with a more diverse set of people than you'd previously been exposed to. To me it makes you a more well-rounded person (and subsequently, employment candidate) than someone who just stuck their head in books.
zeitgeb3r 10y ago
Formula 1 is largely British.
walshemj 10y ago
Um no its bypassing the traditional hierarchy Trade apprenticeship (typically started at 14 /15 ) Higher / Professional apprenticeship BSC/ BA in Engineering You could join the path at any point or go through all 3 stages

dbbk 10y ago

> It's far more useful than the current University arrangement, where 'everyone' gets to pay money to drink for 3 years As shallow as it sounds though, it is bloody good fun.

arethuza 10y ago
"pay money to drink for 3 years" Or 4 years here in Scotland - which reminds me that the university department where I studied and worked was in the Grassmarket of Edinburgh - which is an exceptional location for boozing.
fillskills 10y ago
The begs a question- why cant we have as much fun without paying through the nose
- arethuza 10y ago
  Oddly enough the current situation in Scotland is that people from the rest of the UK do pay fees when attending Scottish universities but people from Scotland and the rest of the EU don't.
- dbbk 10y ago
  Well when you consider the student loan you're technically not paying for it, the government is loaning you the money to do it, with no expectation that you will pay them back.

lima 10y ago

Germany still has apprenticeships (we call it "Ausbildung") and it's great.

pjc50 10y ago

I think that's overstating it, there's a lot of engineering in the UK. It just has a very low media profile, because it either has a foreign name on the product (Nissan!) or doesn't sell to consumers. A surprisingly large amount of it is in really unglamorous buildings in industrial estates outside cities other than London. Since the media have largely stopped bothering to leave the M25, it's invisible. (I have a pet theory based on the car industry that the really toxic thing is British labour relations; there are successful small British companies, and successful large plants with foreign owners, but all the British-managed mass-employment industries collapsed in strikes and/or were looted by the directors like MG Rover.)

fdgdasfadsf 10y ago
> I have a pet theory based on the car industry that the really toxic thing is British labour relations I don't think that many people will disagree with you on this theory.
- sgt101 10y ago
  I will. Every large company in the UK has a significant union. Not every large company has failed. Some company failures have been exacerbated by unions, british leyland being one example. The really toxic thing is financial short termism. It used to be results in a year, which was very bad. Now they want results in under a quarter which is to value generation as acid to chalk.
  - fdgdasfadsf 10y ago
    Just to clarify my post was saying that the relation between union and and management is the problem - not the existence of the union. I ascribe this as much (if not more) to management than to the union.
vkou 10y ago
From the perspective of employees, if they didn't collapse in strikes, they would have collapsed for them due to outsourcing and automation (Which was the fate of manufacturing in America).

tankenmate 10y ago

In fact what he is setting up is very much similar to the German Mittelstand apprenticeship model; however to get similar results requires managers to change their ways, most apprenticeship trained staff in Mittelstand companies have a turnover of 2.7% (rather than up to 30% in entry level employees in US / UK).[0] This means that managers need to realise that you need good, technically solid training, and interesting work for these employees, a defined career path, and persistence and engagement rather than a fire them if I think they're even slightly off / not a good culture fit. A good cultural fit typically requires training too! Think of medieval type apprenticeships; not just on the job training but also training in how to be a productive, respectable adult. If the Dyson IoT does these things that other employers claim they want (soft skills etc) but aren't willing to train or pay for then Dyson's new venture will probably succeed handsomely in the long run. [0] http://www.economist.com/news/business/21606834-many-countries-want-mittelstand-germanys-it-not-so-easy-copy-german-lessons http://www.economist.com/news/business/21606834-many-countri... EDIT: fixed typos

walshemj 10y ago
In a formal trade apprenticeship you signed (a binding contract) for a number of years and if they made you redundant you could sue your master for breach of contact
akhatri_aus 10y ago
Unfortunately today people are fickle and will change jobs if they're just paid more. There's loyalty and cash. In Germany they still have control on their wages.

dmuneka 10y ago

This is similar to the School Leaver programmes run by large accounting firms in the UK as well. You get paid a decent amount to get accredited whilst working for the firm. The programmes could take 6 years, but at the end of it, you would be a much more valuable employee than the person who drank away 3 years of their life! Plus you'd be a qualified accountant! The downside is when all your mates are out having fun, you're being worked to the bone! Not really fun for an 18 year old.

walshemj 10y ago
But will these employees face a glass ceiling in there later carrears.
dbbk 10y ago
The downside isn't just missing out on the 'fun', but also all the soft skills you get. I feel like academia is only 50% of the university story. The rest is expanding your interests, learning independence, making friends with a more diverse set of people than you'd previously been exposed to. To me it makes you a more well-rounded person (and subsequently, employment candidate) than someone who just stuck their head in books.

zeitgeb3r 10y ago

Formula 1 is largely British.

walshemj 10y ago

Um no its bypassing the traditional hierarchy Trade apprenticeship (typically started at 14 /15 ) Higher / Professional apprenticeship BSC/ BA in Engineering You could join the path at any point or go through all 3 stages