4 ms·

The reasoning on the other side is that you should do something to ensure the integrity of your elections. What stops non-citizens from voting? It's telling th

The reasoning on the other side is that you should do something to ensure the integrity of your elections. What stops non-citizens from voting? It's telling that the party opposed to voter verification laws stands to gain from the potential votes of tens of millions of illegal residents. As far as I know, no one is checking outside of states with voter ID laws.

travmatt 10y ago
>As far as I know, no one is checking outside of states with voter ID laws "A comprehensive investigation of voter impersonation finds 31 credible incidents out of one billion ballots cast"[0] Seems like a pretty comprehensive check if you ask me. [0]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-com...
- nomoreaccoubts 10y ago
  That article is referring to voter impersonation. What's to stop an illegal voter from simply voting under their own name and checking the box that says they are a US citizen? I'm genuinely curious. Is there any verification of citizenship in non-ID states?
  - travmatt 10y ago
    Each state handles voter registration differently, although most ask for some proof of citizenship at some point. Also: """ Election fraud happens. But ID laws are not aimed at the fraud you’ll actually hear about. Most current ID laws (Wisconsin is a rare exception) aren’t designed to stop fraud with absentee ballots (indeed, laws requiring ID at the polls push more people into the absentee system, where there are plenty of real dangers). Or vote buying. Or coercion. Or fake registration forms. Or voting from the wrong address. Or ballot box stuffing by officials in on the scam. In the 243-page document that Mississippi State Sen. Chris McDaniel filed on Monday with evidence of allegedly illegal votes in the Mississippi Republican primary, there were no allegations of the kind of fraud that ID can stop. Instead, requirements to show ID at the polls are designed for pretty much one thing: people showing up at the polls pretending to be somebody else in order to each cast one incremental fake ballot. This is a slow, clunky way to steal an election. Which is why it rarely happens. """ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-com...
- moduspol 10y ago
  Yep. People very rarely get kicked out of the movies for sneaking candy in. As a result, we know for certain virtually nobody is sneaking candy into the movies. Pretty simple stuff, guys.
  - travmatt 10y ago
    I always find this method of argumentation intellectually dishonest, probably intentionally so. You try and shift the burden of proof onto your opponent and ask them to prove a negative, and in the absence of this intentionally impossible proof you advocate stripping the rights of franchisement from broad swaths of minority groups by using a cute analogy that doesn't really map well to reality. And then you pat yourself on the back and walk away feeling smart. Back in the real world, away from your fantasy, voting rights are central to American democracy and laws that strip americans of them should actually be shown to be needed, besides the fact that one political party currently only likes white people and subsequently stokes racist anger.
    - moduspol 10y ago
      It's intellectually dishonest to claim something isn't happening while, in the same breath, fighting against any reasonable way to verify it. Here's an intellectually honest argument: > Voter fraud probably happens sometimes, but not on any significant scale. Admittedly we don't really know because there's no way to verify. What we'd lose in preventing that isn't worth what we'd gain. That's different from: > It only happens 31 times in a billion votes because they didn't find evidence otherwise. There's no way to get evidence, and I'm against any measure that would allow it. Any argument against me is likely racist in nature. This is what we're reading here.
      - travmatt 10y ago
        >It's intellectually dishonest to claim something isn't happening while, in the same breath, fighting against any reasonable way to verify it. To be honest I'm not sure what you're arguing. As a quick rundown, people register to vote and then they vote. If a person checks a voters id before voting, they are ensuring the person casting a vote is the same person who registered. This in no way prevents an illegal alien from registering to vote. Ensuring illegal aliens don't vote actually happens during the registering to vote, as most states require some proof before registering them. So as best I can tell you're advocating a solution that doesn't work and has nothing to do with a problem that doesn't exist. For a dose of reality, election fraud does actually happen, but again, the ways in which it happens aren't addressed by voter id laws - again, because voter id laws aren't being pushed to solve any real problems. """ This sort of misdirection is pretty common, actually. Election fraud happens. But ID laws are not aimed at the fraud you’ll actually hear about. Most current ID laws (Wisconsin is a rare exception) aren’t designed to stop fraud with absentee ballots (indeed, laws requiring ID at the polls push more people into the absentee system, where there are plenty of real dangers). Or vote buying. Or coercion. Or fake registration forms. Or voting from the wrong address. Or ballot box stuffing by officials in on the scam. In the 243-page document that Mississippi State Sen. Chris McDaniel filed on Monday with evidence of allegedly illegal votes in the Mississippi Republican primary, there were no allegations of the kind of fraud that ID can stop. Instead, requirements to show ID at the polls are designed for pretty much one thing: people showing up at the polls pretending to be somebody else in order to each cast one incremental fake ballot. This is a slow, clunky way to steal an election. Which is why it rarely happens. """[0] [0]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-com...
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ensignavenger 10y ago
  Doesn't sound 'comprehensive' to me- they didn't review every one of the billion ballots, they only reviewed a few that they got what they determined to be a credible report of voter impersonation. As someone else has pointed out, voter impersonation would be a slow and difficult path to stealing an election, so I am skeptical that it takes place on a large scale, but I have reservations about the claims made in this review.
frostburg 10y ago
I live in a country where we have universal identity documents issued to everyone, but apparently voter fraud is extremely rare even without this measure, in the USA. The distortion caused by targeted voter id laws (republican politicians are on record regarding their intent) is orders of magnitude more significant.

travmatt 10y ago

>As far as I know, no one is checking outside of states with voter ID laws "A comprehensive investigation of voter impersonation finds 31 credible incidents out of one billion ballots cast"[0] Seems like a pretty comprehensive check if you ask me. [0]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-com...

nomoreaccoubts 10y ago
That article is referring to voter impersonation. What's to stop an illegal voter from simply voting under their own name and checking the box that says they are a US citizen? I'm genuinely curious. Is there any verification of citizenship in non-ID states?
- travmatt 10y ago
  Each state handles voter registration differently, although most ask for some proof of citizenship at some point. Also: """ Election fraud happens. But ID laws are not aimed at the fraud you’ll actually hear about. Most current ID laws (Wisconsin is a rare exception) aren’t designed to stop fraud with absentee ballots (indeed, laws requiring ID at the polls push more people into the absentee system, where there are plenty of real dangers). Or vote buying. Or coercion. Or fake registration forms. Or voting from the wrong address. Or ballot box stuffing by officials in on the scam. In the 243-page document that Mississippi State Sen. Chris McDaniel filed on Monday with evidence of allegedly illegal votes in the Mississippi Republican primary, there were no allegations of the kind of fraud that ID can stop. Instead, requirements to show ID at the polls are designed for pretty much one thing: people showing up at the polls pretending to be somebody else in order to each cast one incremental fake ballot. This is a slow, clunky way to steal an election. Which is why it rarely happens. """ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-com...
moduspol 10y ago
Yep. People very rarely get kicked out of the movies for sneaking candy in. As a result, we know for certain virtually nobody is sneaking candy into the movies. Pretty simple stuff, guys.
- travmatt 10y ago
  I always find this method of argumentation intellectually dishonest, probably intentionally so. You try and shift the burden of proof onto your opponent and ask them to prove a negative, and in the absence of this intentionally impossible proof you advocate stripping the rights of franchisement from broad swaths of minority groups by using a cute analogy that doesn't really map well to reality. And then you pat yourself on the back and walk away feeling smart. Back in the real world, away from your fantasy, voting rights are central to American democracy and laws that strip americans of them should actually be shown to be needed, besides the fact that one political party currently only likes white people and subsequently stokes racist anger.
  - moduspol 10y ago
    It's intellectually dishonest to claim something isn't happening while, in the same breath, fighting against any reasonable way to verify it. Here's an intellectually honest argument: > Voter fraud probably happens sometimes, but not on any significant scale. Admittedly we don't really know because there's no way to verify. What we'd lose in preventing that isn't worth what we'd gain. That's different from: > It only happens 31 times in a billion votes because they didn't find evidence otherwise. There's no way to get evidence, and I'm against any measure that would allow it. Any argument against me is likely racist in nature. This is what we're reading here.
    - travmatt 10y ago
      >It's intellectually dishonest to claim something isn't happening while, in the same breath, fighting against any reasonable way to verify it. To be honest I'm not sure what you're arguing. As a quick rundown, people register to vote and then they vote. If a person checks a voters id before voting, they are ensuring the person casting a vote is the same person who registered. This in no way prevents an illegal alien from registering to vote. Ensuring illegal aliens don't vote actually happens during the registering to vote, as most states require some proof before registering them. So as best I can tell you're advocating a solution that doesn't work and has nothing to do with a problem that doesn't exist. For a dose of reality, election fraud does actually happen, but again, the ways in which it happens aren't addressed by voter id laws - again, because voter id laws aren't being pushed to solve any real problems. """ This sort of misdirection is pretty common, actually. Election fraud happens. But ID laws are not aimed at the fraud you’ll actually hear about. Most current ID laws (Wisconsin is a rare exception) aren’t designed to stop fraud with absentee ballots (indeed, laws requiring ID at the polls push more people into the absentee system, where there are plenty of real dangers). Or vote buying. Or coercion. Or fake registration forms. Or voting from the wrong address. Or ballot box stuffing by officials in on the scam. In the 243-page document that Mississippi State Sen. Chris McDaniel filed on Monday with evidence of allegedly illegal votes in the Mississippi Republican primary, there were no allegations of the kind of fraud that ID can stop. Instead, requirements to show ID at the polls are designed for pretty much one thing: people showing up at the polls pretending to be somebody else in order to each cast one incremental fake ballot. This is a slow, clunky way to steal an election. Which is why it rarely happens. """[0] [0]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/08/06/a-com...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ensignavenger 10y ago
Doesn't sound 'comprehensive' to me- they didn't review every one of the billion ballots, they only reviewed a few that they got what they determined to be a credible report of voter impersonation. As someone else has pointed out, voter impersonation would be a slow and difficult path to stealing an election, so I am skeptical that it takes place on a large scale, but I have reservations about the claims made in this review.

frostburg 10y ago

I live in a country where we have universal identity documents issued to everyone, but apparently voter fraud is extremely rare even without this measure, in the USA. The distortion caused by targeted voter id laws (republican politicians are on record regarding their intent) is orders of magnitude more significant.