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What I don't get from these articles is why are they only talk about outsourcing IT services and how it hurts US employees? Outsourcing manufacturing to countri

What I don't get from these articles is why are they only talk about outsourcing IT services and how it hurts US employees? Outsourcing manufacturing to countries like China also hurt employment - I don't see this to be much different than that. Comoanies should do whatever it takes to keep them profitable and in this era of globalization, the competition is not only from companies based in US but worldwide. As an aside though, I do feel that H1-B visa is being misused. I know a couple of friends who recently completed their MBA from reputed colleges in US but weren't able to get the visa due to the cap since Indian outsourcing companies nabbed majority of them. I feel there should be a separate category for visas for students who study in US so that they get a fair chance to participate in US workforce. Also, this will encourage talented folks worldwide to come to US since their future no longer will be decided based on a lottery

lvs 10y ago
On your first question, I think the issue is that Americans have gotten accustomed to the loss of manufacturing sector jobs, but the argument had always been that we were slowly switching to a service and/or "knowledge" economy. The kind of outsourcing described in the article challenges the claim that Americans are competitive even in those employment sectors. As an aside, UCSF is not a company, so your point about anything-goes competition is in this case a non-sequitur.
- zanny 10y ago
  It isn't a skills problem, its a salary problem. Cost of living in the US is astronomical compared to any of the nations you import IT labor from. The only leg up the US (still) has is that there is no accountability in bad business done overseas - if you get crap products from your outsourced developer team, you don't have a floor to go down the elevator to where you can yell at a project lead in person.
mavelikara 10y ago
> I feel there should be a separate category for visas for students who study in US so that they get a fair chance to participate in US workforce. Every year 20K visa are earmarked for exactly this - see http://www.immi-usa.com/h1b-2015-2016-masters-quota-determining-cap-eligibility/ http://www.immi-usa.com/h1b-2015-2016-masters-quota-determin...
- product50 10y ago
  Those get filled out fast. What do you do with the rest of international students. How would you explain a talented Joe who is in South Africa to come to US to do his Masters if he has no guarantee that he will get a visa?
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
namelezz 10y ago
> What I don't get from these articles is why are they only talk about outsourcing IT services and how it hurts US employees? It will hurt US workers in the long run because Indians are known for their hiring bias[1,2]. > This will encourage talented folks worldwide to come to US Come to US for layoffs? XD [1] http://www.computerworld.com/article/2692372/former-infosys-recruiter-says-he-was-told-not-to-hire-us-workers.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2692372/former-infosys-... [2] https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-bias-among-Indians-of-hiring-other-Indian-workers-in-the-IT-industry https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-bias-among-Indians-of-hir...
mc32 10y ago
Well, it's the same way that highly paid professionals like tenured professors, lawyers, scientists, politicians tend to be liberal when it comes to cross border labor --because they believe their positions are secure, due to structural quirks, but if these positions were open to competition as manufacturing and call center as well as help desk and software development are, you'd likely see them change their outlook toward these things.
- yummyfajitas 10y ago
  Professors are extremely open to international competition already. Universities can get cap-exempt H1B visas for professors and these visas. The same is true for non-profit research organizations, e.g. scientific research labs. http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/july%202008%20cap%20exempt%20h1b%20visas%20jobs%20and%20sponsorship/ref/1195/ http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/july%202008%20cap%20exempt%2... http://www.visapro.com/h1b-visa/h1b-cap-exempt-employers.asp http://www.visapro.com/h1b-visa/h1b-cap-exempt-employers.asp From my time in academia, it seemed like a wildly disproportionate number of professors were born overseas. I have only 1 coauthor who was born in the US. Your hypothesis that these folks would change their outlook based on greed and rent seeking seems to be falsified.
  - mc32 10y ago
    True but _tenured_ professors don't have to fear foreign instructors, only aspiring domestic instructors need fear international competition.
    - yummyfajitas 10y ago
      It's merely anecdotal, but I observed no particular disparity in views between tenured professors (those at the end of the tournament) and graduate students (those at the beginning, currently in vicious competition with all the foreigners surrounding them).
      - polotics 10y ago
swagtricker 10y ago
The initial qualifications expected of the typical manufacturing worker: has high school diploma or GED, passes piss test, and can handle 8 hours of 'put nut A on bolt B', and will be trained on the job. The typical qualifications expected of an IT worker are more like: BA in related field or additional 4 years work experience, passes background check, might have collected industry certificates, will have a 'manager' but won't keep job if individual 'needs to be managed', and will self-train on evenings/weekends. Unlike manufacturing, not every high school graduate with clean urine can get an entry level job in IT. That assessment is from years knowing auto industry workers in the Midwest and aerospace industry workers in the Pacific Northwest - friends and family in both, and 20 years of my own work in IT.
- product50 10y ago
  I don't get your point. If someone sitting in India can do the same job at much lesser price, which is a similar premise to outsourcing manufacturing jobs, why not let the company do that. It doesn't matter what qualifications an American worker who will be replaced has as long as the worked in India can do the job adequately (and to similar standards).
nsm 10y ago
> I feel there should be a separate category for visas for students who study in US so that they get a fair chance to participate in US workforce. I don't think "studied in the US" is a good abuse prevention measure. I know several H1-B visa holders who are exceptional developers, who came to the US straight after an undergrad in a foreign country. One way to prevent abuse is to put a cap on per-company H1-B quotas or have higher regulatory standards for companies that apply for a ton of them. Right now it is really easy for large consultancy companies from India to submit a ton of applications and send the folks who win the lottery over.

lvs 10y ago

On your first question, I think the issue is that Americans have gotten accustomed to the loss of manufacturing sector jobs, but the argument had always been that we were slowly switching to a service and/or "knowledge" economy. The kind of outsourcing described in the article challenges the claim that Americans are competitive even in those employment sectors. As an aside, UCSF is not a company, so your point about anything-goes competition is in this case a non-sequitur.

zanny 10y ago
It isn't a skills problem, its a salary problem. Cost of living in the US is astronomical compared to any of the nations you import IT labor from. The only leg up the US (still) has is that there is no accountability in bad business done overseas - if you get crap products from your outsourced developer team, you don't have a floor to go down the elevator to where you can yell at a project lead in person.

mavelikara 10y ago

> I feel there should be a separate category for visas for students who study in US so that they get a fair chance to participate in US workforce. Every year 20K visa are earmarked for exactly this - see http://www.immi-usa.com/h1b-2015-2016-masters-quota-determining-cap-eligibility/ http://www.immi-usa.com/h1b-2015-2016-masters-quota-determin...

product50 10y ago
Those get filled out fast. What do you do with the rest of international students. How would you explain a talented Joe who is in South Africa to come to US to do his Masters if he has no guarantee that he will get a visa?
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]

namelezz 10y ago

> What I don't get from these articles is why are they only talk about outsourcing IT services and how it hurts US employees? It will hurt US workers in the long run because Indians are known for their hiring bias[1,2]. > This will encourage talented folks worldwide to come to US Come to US for layoffs? XD [1] http://www.computerworld.com/article/2692372/former-infosys-recruiter-says-he-was-told-not-to-hire-us-workers.html http://www.computerworld.com/article/2692372/former-infosys-... [2] https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-bias-among-Indians-of-hiring-other-Indian-workers-in-the-IT-industry https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-bias-among-Indians-of-hir...

mc32 10y ago

Well, it's the same way that highly paid professionals like tenured professors, lawyers, scientists, politicians tend to be liberal when it comes to cross border labor --because they believe their positions are secure, due to structural quirks, but if these positions were open to competition as manufacturing and call center as well as help desk and software development are, you'd likely see them change their outlook toward these things.

yummyfajitas 10y ago
Professors are extremely open to international competition already. Universities can get cap-exempt H1B visas for professors and these visas. The same is true for non-profit research organizations, e.g. scientific research labs. http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/july%202008%20cap%20exempt%20h1b%20visas%20jobs%20and%20sponsorship/ref/1195/ http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/july%202008%20cap%20exempt%2... http://www.visapro.com/h1b-visa/h1b-cap-exempt-employers.asp http://www.visapro.com/h1b-visa/h1b-cap-exempt-employers.asp From my time in academia, it seemed like a wildly disproportionate number of professors were born overseas. I have only 1 coauthor who was born in the US. Your hypothesis that these folks would change their outlook based on greed and rent seeking seems to be falsified.
- mc32 10y ago
  True but _tenured_ professors don't have to fear foreign instructors, only aspiring domestic instructors need fear international competition.
  - yummyfajitas 10y ago
    It's merely anecdotal, but I observed no particular disparity in views between tenured professors (those at the end of the tournament) and graduate students (those at the beginning, currently in vicious competition with all the foreigners surrounding them).
    - polotics 10y ago

swagtricker 10y ago

The initial qualifications expected of the typical manufacturing worker: has high school diploma or GED, passes piss test, and can handle 8 hours of 'put nut A on bolt B', and will be trained on the job. The typical qualifications expected of an IT worker are more like: BA in related field or additional 4 years work experience, passes background check, might have collected industry certificates, will have a 'manager' but won't keep job if individual 'needs to be managed', and will self-train on evenings/weekends. Unlike manufacturing, not every high school graduate with clean urine can get an entry level job in IT. That assessment is from years knowing auto industry workers in the Midwest and aerospace industry workers in the Pacific Northwest - friends and family in both, and 20 years of my own work in IT.

product50 10y ago
I don't get your point. If someone sitting in India can do the same job at much lesser price, which is a similar premise to outsourcing manufacturing jobs, why not let the company do that. It doesn't matter what qualifications an American worker who will be replaced has as long as the worked in India can do the job adequately (and to similar standards).

nsm 10y ago

> I feel there should be a separate category for visas for students who study in US so that they get a fair chance to participate in US workforce. I don't think "studied in the US" is a good abuse prevention measure. I know several H1-B visa holders who are exceptional developers, who came to the US straight after an undergrad in a foreign country. One way to prevent abuse is to put a cap on per-company H1-B quotas or have higher regulatory standards for companies that apply for a ton of them. Right now it is really easy for large consultancy companies from India to submit a ton of applications and send the folks who win the lottery over.