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> In Ancient Greece, no building symbolized democracy and beauty like the Parthenon As an aside, when will we stop wistfully speaking about ancient Greek (Athe

by vacri 10y ago

> In Ancient Greece, no building symbolized democracy and beauty like the Parthenon As an aside, when will we stop wistfully speaking about ancient Greek (Athenian) democracy? You know, the democracy where anyone could vote, as long as they weren't a slave, weren't a woman, and owned land? How anyone can idealise a 'democracy' where some people were the property of other people is puzzling in the modern age. Academic interest, sure, but nostalgia?

woodruffw 10y ago
We remember Athenian democracy for its principle, not its actualization. Aristotle thought that you had to be a large-muscled man to be truly virtuous. Just about every European Enlightenment philosopher had something nasty to say about "savages" or women. Look past their period-specific blind spots, and their theories continue to hold weight.
- vacri 10y ago
  You can say that about anything. Communism is great, in theory, but its actualization sucks. Having nobility make all your decisions is great in theory, but not in practice. Benevolent dictatorships are great in theory, but there's no clean way to dislodge them when they start to lose their benevolence. Theocracies, tribal elders, meritocracies... I mean, what is the difference between a council of nobility and a council of land-holding Athenian citizens, where citizenship is an inherited trait? Is there all that much of a difference if 10% of the population gets a say instead of 2%? Not to mention that if you only get a say when you've inherited your title and also own land, then that really starts to sound like a noble class anyway. Handwaving away "yeah, but slaves, women, poor people was just a thing of the period" just isn't good enough. I'm reminded of Stephen Fry's roar in his Catholicism debate, when one speaker defended past misdeeds by the Catholic church as 'well, no-one at the time knew any better', to which Fry responded 'Well, what then are you for?'. It's all very well to have a feelgood core of a theory, but you have to have the execution of it as well. Lots more has been added to democracy since the early days; it wasn't some sort of golden period of the common person.
  - ue_ 10y ago
    >Communism is great, in theory, but its actualization sucks. If I had a nickel for every time someone said this, I'd invest in stocks and shares and become a capitalist. It's such a tiring trope, like an old version of "all the parties are as bad as each other". Infinely repeatable, and everyone agrees by default. Wonderful!

by vacri 10y ago

woodruffw 10y ago

We remember Athenian democracy for its principle, not its actualization. Aristotle thought that you had to be a large-muscled man to be truly virtuous. Just about every European Enlightenment philosopher had something nasty to say about "savages" or women. Look past their period-specific blind spots, and their theories continue to hold weight.

vacri 10y ago
You can say that about anything. Communism is great, in theory, but its actualization sucks. Having nobility make all your decisions is great in theory, but not in practice. Benevolent dictatorships are great in theory, but there's no clean way to dislodge them when they start to lose their benevolence. Theocracies, tribal elders, meritocracies... I mean, what is the difference between a council of nobility and a council of land-holding Athenian citizens, where citizenship is an inherited trait? Is there all that much of a difference if 10% of the population gets a say instead of 2%? Not to mention that if you only get a say when you've inherited your title and also own land, then that really starts to sound like a noble class anyway. Handwaving away "yeah, but slaves, women, poor people was just a thing of the period" just isn't good enough. I'm reminded of Stephen Fry's roar in his Catholicism debate, when one speaker defended past misdeeds by the Catholic church as 'well, no-one at the time knew any better', to which Fry responded 'Well, what then are you for?'. It's all very well to have a feelgood core of a theory, but you have to have the execution of it as well. Lots more has been added to democracy since the early days; it wasn't some sort of golden period of the common person.
- ue_ 10y ago
  >Communism is great, in theory, but its actualization sucks. If I had a nickel for every time someone said this, I'd invest in stocks and shares and become a capitalist. It's such a tiring trope, like an old version of "all the parties are as bad as each other". Infinely repeatable, and everyone agrees by default. Wonderful!