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How Airbnb Makes It Hard to Sue for Discrimination
- ohazi 10y agotldr: arbitration clauses
- jack9 10y agoor how many (and most "mega") companies make it hard to sue for anything.
- yason 10y agoTo me it sounds weird that something like the right to sue would not be a fundamental right similar to free speech but something you can legally give up. It's even worse when combined with shrink-wrap agreements such as terms of use which is kind of analogous to "by entering this establishment you agree to the following terms of service".
- nickff 10y agoThe First Amendment only applies against the governments; if some non-government person tells you to 'shut up', it is not a First Amendment issue.
- gwatch 10y agoYou are dead wrong. Read the constitution. It is a simple document and freely available.
- tzs 10y agoFirst Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." It is a limitation on government, not on private parties. Originally it was only a limitation on the Federal government, but it has been extended to state and local government via the 14th Amendment.
- gwatch 10y agoA private person has the first amendment right to tell you to shut up. You can talk back too. If you try to use physical force or use government (police) to shut down someone's right to offend you, then you are a totalitarian -- same as a Islamist trying to kill you if you offend his Mohammed. This is why we have first amendment.
- CptJamesCook 10y agoThe laws are complex and varied, but it's typically legal to discriminate when renting individual rooms. Entire houses are a different story, though.
- ars 10y agoWhat a bizarre article. It has nothing to do with Airbnb, and everything to do with arbitration. If your interest is Airbnb or discrimination then skip this article. Try buying a car without agreeing to arbitration - you can't. It's a problem. But Airbnb is not the right company to use to talk about it.
- supercanuck 10y ago>It's a problem. But Airbnb is not the right company to use to talk about it. Why?
- ars 10y agoBecause you'll get lost in a whole discussion of discrimination, if it's Airbnb's responsibility to prevent, if homeowners have the right to discriminate. If Airbnb is even legal, etc, etc, etc. (For example look at some of the comments in this thread that are talking about discrimination, when the topic is ostensibly arbitration. It should be two separate discussions.) Either talk about it in a Vacuum (without any particular company), or at least pick a case that is more "pure", i.e. unequivocally the company's responsibility.
- npizzolato 10y agoIt seems like the two topics are correctly being linked. Airbnb is trying to use arbitration clauses to avoid having to answer any questions about large-scale discrimination. Why should it be talked about in a vacuum?
- ars 10y agoBecause you can solve (try to solve) the discrimination issue without ever touching the arbitration issue. But the problem at hand (specifically the problem in the article) is arbitration. Mixing two topics, and then solving the wrong one is a very common and effective debate and political tactic.
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- hprotagonist 10y agoArbitration clauses are pretty egregious. Should it come to a real court, though, I imagine AirBnB would say something like "we're basically a common carrier, so we're not on the hook, and you can't compel people to house everybody in their own domicile, so even if they are racists there's nothing you can do about it". Rather like Uber trying to have their cake and eat it too.
- icebraining 10y agoShould newspapers also be held liable if the owners of the houses being advertised on classified ads discriminated? Uber is a service that abstracts the drivers. AirBnB is a marketplace where the seller is clearly identified, sets their own prices and policies, has their own reputation, etc. They are very much not alike. (This is not a endorsement of their arbitration policies, mind you)
- r00fus 10y agoNewspapers classifieds sections don't help set prices nor are they involved in the transaction for rental/purchase (Airbnb takes a %). I don't think they can claim common carrier if they're involved to this level, can they?
- icebraining 10y agoLegally, I have no idea, especially since AirBnB operates in many jurisdictions. But I don't see why giving price suggestions means they are suddenly responsible for the policies of their users.
- gertef 10y agoAirBnB mediates the whole transaction. Their business proposition is entirely that they are the middle-layer between host and guest. In advertising, the advertising medium has no involvement in the services being offered or fulfilled.
- spraak 10y agoI always wonder how to handle this. I myself was recently rejected for an Airbnb listing and while I felt angry and wanted revenge, I also felt glad that I didn't accidentally stay with someone that wouldn't like/hated me.
- ryuker16 10y agoThere are alot of reasons I turn people down on airbnb. Usually related to money.
- spraak 10y agoI understand it can be for more than race, but what do you mean by money?
- ryuker16 10y agoEvents allow me to jack up the prices. Sometimes a bunch people request a date far in advance and I find out some giant events scheduled for 6 days but you want two and every hotel is sold out. Yep....your gonna get bounced followed by immediate price hike
- ryuker16 10y agoOther things include asking if you can smoke malboro reds inside my place or trying to cram 6 people into my place or just being creepy or weird with your request or trying to haggle on price. From talking to other host, appearing like your there to party(live 20 minutes away, under 25, bring a huge group for party) is a giant red flag. Race is pretty far down the list of 'don't accept'. Honestly, I haven't seen any sketch people on airbnb yet...broke sketch people tend to view it with the same suspicion others view them('won't you be robbed!!!' ). Women are the biggest pita since they tend to grade harder or their men folk show up to cause issues in my life as a host or they're friends arent cool with airbnb then freak out to find a male stranger lives in the place. Women bringing guys or alone are pretty chill.... Groups are nightmares.
- dahdum 10y ago'On Wednesday, when I e-mailed Papas about criticism of arbitration, he replied, “Our policies are similar to most companies and we’ve found that arbitration is an effective way to resolve many issues.” Then Papas made another striking point: that “guests also retain the ability to take action against hosts.” In other words, Airbnb’s customers can sue homeowners for discrimination, even while they’re barred from suing Airbnb itself.' Surprised by that encouragement from Airbnb, this a scary prospect for homeowners using the platform. Even untrue allegations would sink you in legal costs, with Airbnb washing their hands of all of it.
- dudul 10y agoAgreed. I actually don't even understand what ground a discriminated guest would have. A host is not a business, as far as I know everybody can decide who enters their house. That being said I'm not a lawyer.
- wvenable 10y agoI think the question revolves around whether a host is a business. If you're a business, all sorts of rules apply that don't apply if you're not. Now here are people taking money in exchange for service, it might be hard to argue they aren't a business.
- meira 10y agoYou are arguing against the legality of airbnb.
- nacho2sweet 10y agoIn places like Vancouver all hosts are soon going to be required to have business licenses posted on their AirBnB listings.
- briandear 10y agoThat's ridiculous. Government overreach. The government should leave people alone.
- serge2k 10y agoThese mandatory arbitration clauses buried inside EULAs should be illegal.
- ersii 10y agoWhat makes you forced to agree to them in the first place? If a service has a terrible EULA - do not use it and do not accept their end user agreement. (By the way, I'm basically telling you to "discriminate based on EULAs".)
- serge2k 10y agoThat's really not an acceptable solution. Especially in an age where "We can alter this contract however we want, whenever we want" is apparently valid.
- imroot 10y agoAirBNB is interesting. Before I even stayed at an AirBnB, I paid for a AirBnB, and then was kicked off of their system, because after they "searched public records," they discovered that they didn't want me as a customer. Interestingly enough, at the time I was a contractor for a three-letter agency, so my background was pretty-damn clean. They didn't follow FDCPA, no adverse notice telling me what their "source" of information was (so that I could correct it), and no appeal. It took me another week to get my $$ back from AirBnB. The irony of this is that they still send me emails telling me of terms of service and marketing emails, even after telling me that they don't want me as a customer. Oh well.
- steveeq1 10y agoAre you black? Do you suspect racism?
- ryuker16 10y agoI'm a black airbnb host.... That platform is pretty easy to avoid Racism via Instabook.
- ninv 10y agoAirBNB can easily fix this issue by disallowing the hosts to reject the booking request if place is available. If host rejects the booking request, AirBNB can block them from renting out to other people for that time period. They can run analytics and find out who is rejecting to black sounding names and renting out afterward. What are they doing?
- caseysoftware 10y agoThat starts getting into an interesting combination of laws.. A - While some stores say "we reserve the right to refuse service," that's been pretty soundly defeated in a number of lawsuits, part of which sparked the various "religious freedom" bills. B - Alternatively, you can deny anyone access to your home for any reason. Just because a [black, white, gay, any religion] person knocks on your door, doesn't mean you have to let them in. So when you rent your home via AirBnb, do you have the rights & responsibilities of a homeowner or of a business? Is there a threshold where it switches?
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- gwatch 10y agoWhy should anyone be allowed to sue for discrimination when the service is not owed in the first place?
- gwatch 10y agoAllowing to sue someone for discrimination for a service you are not owed in the first place is another brain dead idea of leftists. Capitalism is color blind. Someone else will offer the service if one discriminates.
- analog31 10y agoAs I understand it, one theory of market capitalism is that value equals perceived value. If this is the case, then capitalism is only color blind if perception is color blind.
- wfo 10y agoThat is literally the opposite of what has happened historically and is exactly why we have e.g. civil rights laws. In a fantasy land where every tiny decision any business makes which is non profit maximizing results in the destruction of that business, sure. We won't have weekends, benefits, a cordial employer/employee relationship, a living wage for anyone, or discrimination. What a wonderful capitalist paradise. I hope you don't live in a part of the world where racism is culturally common and businesses that serve all races are discriminated AGAINST by the majority culture, because those businesses would cease to exist as well. Fortunately for all of us, the market is just not that efficient. Nobody is ever punished by the market for discrimination, only by laws.
- SilasX 10y agoKind of funny to see this in contrast to their rolling out the "Community Commitment" ("you agree you won't discriminated based on ...") they recently rolled out and required of users: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12822833 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12822833
- biocomputation 10y agoI think arbitration clauses are wrong. It's the ultimate * off to your customers and an utterly first class way to say that you don't stand behind your work.