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Wow that's quite funny that you've interpreted what is clearly about locking users in so they can't leave, as "make all our products work great together". Let

by exodust 10y ago

Wow that's quite funny that you've interpreted what is clearly about locking users in so they can't leave, as "make all our products work great together". Let me put this to you, if he'd meant "make our products work great together" then that's what he would have said. But he didn't say that. So please don't try to change what the man said. All these tech giants fall over themselves trying to dream up ways to lock users into their ecosystem, it's what they do. It's motivated by profit, competition, and aggressive marketing and business. Nothing to do with benefits for the end user, or open technologies or saving people money.

eridius 10y ago
You seem to be missing the point. There's two different ways to lock people in to an ecosystem. The first way (the "good" way) is to make all the components of your ecosystem work so well together that it's hard for someone to find good replacements for any component (i.e. any replacements they look at won't work quite so well with the rest of the ecosystem, so they would be losing value by replacing any component). The second way (the "bad" way) is to deliberately put up roadblocks that actually prevent people from finding replacements. For example, making it impossible to export your data in a cross-platform format, or using proprietary protocols for the sole purpose of preventing others from being compatible. Apple doesn't do the latter - they use open protocols whenever appropriate, and nearly all products have some way to export your data in a cross-platform format.
- xorxornop 10y ago
  Except that you can't build anything for OSX when you don't have a Mac. That's a totally artificial constraint. Not lock in, you say? Hell,_Microsoft_ is more open than this... the crowd favourite lock-in bogeyman no less...
  - eridius 10y ago
    Apple does not provide developer tools for other platforms, that's true. But that doesn't make this an artificial constraint. Apple would have to invest time and effort to support development on other platforms, and there's not really any reason for them to do so. Also, you certainly can develop for macOS from another platform, if you're using a development environment that supports this. There's a number of cross-platform environments that will work. The latest fad is Electron. You just can't build a native Cocoa app. That said, I'm unsure if any third party has a way to codesign your macOS app or if that's limited to Apple's developer tools.
- exodust 10y ago
  There's no such thing as a "good way" of locking someone in. Stop trying to describe a shit sandwich as a gourmet lunch. The very nature of being locked into something gives us a good idea of how to evaluate that state. The exception would be if outside of this locked in environment is pure evil trying to get in and kill us. Your claim that Apple is all about cross-platform data formats and non-proprietary protocols "where appropriate" is not my experience at all. I can only imagine you are speaking from within the locked-in ecosystem you so love, and have no need to ever go outside? From iOS app development (at least the submission stage); to prohibiting users from installing software not signed by Apple; to accessing files on your iPad (requires iTunes); lack of SD card on iOS devices; forget about USB; screen mirroring your iPhone to your TV (requires Apple TV, and sensible protocols such as Wi-Fi direct are not permitted); full screen web page on iOS Safari - forget about it; charging your iPad (requires Apple charger); developing a browser for iOS (no alternative render engines allowed); connecting a video-out cable to your iOS device (requires special Apple cable. The list goes on. So many times on my iPad I've wanted to retrieve a file such as an animation I made with an app, and the hassle to bring it across to my desktop PC.. it's a lock-in shit-sandwich, and it's not nice.
  - eridius 10y ago
    > There's no such thing as a "good way" of locking someone in. You're focusing too much on the word "lock" and completely ignoring the actual meaning. "Locking someone in" by providing so much value that they don't want to go elsewhere is a great thing! > Your claim that Apple is all about cross-platform data formats and non-proprietary protocols "where appropriate" is not my experience at all. Please explain, then. As I mentioned in another comment, the only data I can think of from an Apple product that I can't export somehow is my iMessages, and the only purchased content (not apps, it should be obvious why those aren't portable) is TV/Movies, which is because they're DRM'd, which is a requirement from the content producer rather than something Apple chose to do. Nothing in your last paragraph is at all relevant to being able to export your data, and it's got a lot of misinformation in it as well. I'll respond to some of the more obvious ones. > prohibiting users from installing software not signed by Apple This is a major security issue, and isn't even remotely relevant to the discussion about leaving the Apple ecosystem. And of course you can actually install self-signed open-source software through Xcode. > lack of SD card on iOS devices A cursory internet search pulls up multiple lightning-enabled SD card readers that you can plug into your iOS devices. > Wi-Fi direct Wi-Fi direct isn't a video streaming protocol, it's a way of connecting two wi-fi devices without a wireless access point. It's not even remotely related to the problem of streaming video from your mobile device to your TV. I'm not aware of any "standard" that replicates AirPlay, and competing devices seem to be using their own non-standardized protocols (e.g. Chromecast seems to require using Google's SDK). > full screen web page on iOS Safari What are you trying to say here? You're not actually describing a problem. And I'm not sure how this is supposed to be related at all to the current discussion anyway. > charging your iPad (requires Apple charger) No it doesn't, it just requires a 12W USB charger. A cursory internet search for "ipad charger" pulls up many third-party devices. > developing a browser for iOS I don't see how this is related to the discussion either. > connecting a video-out cable to your iOS device Assuming your implication is correct and there are no third-party solutions to doing this besides buying Apple's Lightning Digital AV Adapater, this still doesn't have anything to do with "lock-in", because you can just buy that adapter and now you have industry-standard video out. > So many times on my iPad I've wanted to retrieve a file such as an animation I made with an app, and the hassle to bring it across to my desktop PC.. This is not a lock-in problem either. I assume you're saying that this particular app requires using iTunes to get the file (though if so that's really surprising, it's been literally years since I've seen an app that actually requires using iTunes file browsing). If there's no easy way to do that, that's a problem with the app. Most apps that let you create content also have a variety of mechanisms for getting the content off of the device. iTunes file browsing dates back from a time when almost everybody actually regularly synced their iOS devices with their computer, and so it wasn't a problem to require using iTunes to transfer files back and forth. Now that syncing with iTunes isn't something everybody is expected to do anymore, there's no reason for apps to be stuck in the past and require using iTunes file syncing to transfer files. So really, your complaint should be with the app's choice of file syncing mechanisms, and not this weird insinuation that the existence of the completely optional feature that is iTunes file syncing is some form of lock-in.

by exodust 10y ago

eridius 10y ago

You seem to be missing the point. There's two different ways to lock people in to an ecosystem. The first way (the "good" way) is to make all the components of your ecosystem work so well together that it's hard for someone to find good replacements for any component (i.e. any replacements they look at won't work quite so well with the rest of the ecosystem, so they would be losing value by replacing any component). The second way (the "bad" way) is to deliberately put up roadblocks that actually prevent people from finding replacements. For example, making it impossible to export your data in a cross-platform format, or using proprietary protocols for the sole purpose of preventing others from being compatible. Apple doesn't do the latter - they use open protocols whenever appropriate, and nearly all products have some way to export your data in a cross-platform format.

xorxornop 10y ago
Except that you can't build anything for OSX when you don't have a Mac. That's a totally artificial constraint. Not lock in, you say? Hell,_Microsoft_ is more open than this... the crowd favourite lock-in bogeyman no less...
- eridius 10y ago
  Apple does not provide developer tools for other platforms, that's true. But that doesn't make this an artificial constraint. Apple would have to invest time and effort to support development on other platforms, and there's not really any reason for them to do so. Also, you certainly can develop for macOS from another platform, if you're using a development environment that supports this. There's a number of cross-platform environments that will work. The latest fad is Electron. You just can't build a native Cocoa app. That said, I'm unsure if any third party has a way to codesign your macOS app or if that's limited to Apple's developer tools.
exodust 10y ago
There's no such thing as a "good way" of locking someone in. Stop trying to describe a shit sandwich as a gourmet lunch. The very nature of being locked into something gives us a good idea of how to evaluate that state. The exception would be if outside of this locked in environment is pure evil trying to get in and kill us. Your claim that Apple is all about cross-platform data formats and non-proprietary protocols "where appropriate" is not my experience at all. I can only imagine you are speaking from within the locked-in ecosystem you so love, and have no need to ever go outside? From iOS app development (at least the submission stage); to prohibiting users from installing software not signed by Apple; to accessing files on your iPad (requires iTunes); lack of SD card on iOS devices; forget about USB; screen mirroring your iPhone to your TV (requires Apple TV, and sensible protocols such as Wi-Fi direct are not permitted); full screen web page on iOS Safari - forget about it; charging your iPad (requires Apple charger); developing a browser for iOS (no alternative render engines allowed); connecting a video-out cable to your iOS device (requires special Apple cable. The list goes on. So many times on my iPad I've wanted to retrieve a file such as an animation I made with an app, and the hassle to bring it across to my desktop PC.. it's a lock-in shit-sandwich, and it's not nice.
- eridius 10y ago
  > There's no such thing as a "good way" of locking someone in. You're focusing too much on the word "lock" and completely ignoring the actual meaning. "Locking someone in" by providing so much value that they don't want to go elsewhere is a great thing! > Your claim that Apple is all about cross-platform data formats and non-proprietary protocols "where appropriate" is not my experience at all. Please explain, then. As I mentioned in another comment, the only data I can think of from an Apple product that I can't export somehow is my iMessages, and the only purchased content (not apps, it should be obvious why those aren't portable) is TV/Movies, which is because they're DRM'd, which is a requirement from the content producer rather than something Apple chose to do. Nothing in your last paragraph is at all relevant to being able to export your data, and it's got a lot of misinformation in it as well. I'll respond to some of the more obvious ones. > prohibiting users from installing software not signed by Apple This is a major security issue, and isn't even remotely relevant to the discussion about leaving the Apple ecosystem. And of course you can actually install self-signed open-source software through Xcode. > lack of SD card on iOS devices A cursory internet search pulls up multiple lightning-enabled SD card readers that you can plug into your iOS devices. > Wi-Fi direct Wi-Fi direct isn't a video streaming protocol, it's a way of connecting two wi-fi devices without a wireless access point. It's not even remotely related to the problem of streaming video from your mobile device to your TV. I'm not aware of any "standard" that replicates AirPlay, and competing devices seem to be using their own non-standardized protocols (e.g. Chromecast seems to require using Google's SDK). > full screen web page on iOS Safari What are you trying to say here? You're not actually describing a problem. And I'm not sure how this is supposed to be related at all to the current discussion anyway. > charging your iPad (requires Apple charger) No it doesn't, it just requires a 12W USB charger. A cursory internet search for "ipad charger" pulls up many third-party devices. > developing a browser for iOS I don't see how this is related to the discussion either. > connecting a video-out cable to your iOS device Assuming your implication is correct and there are no third-party solutions to doing this besides buying Apple's Lightning Digital AV Adapater, this still doesn't have anything to do with "lock-in", because you can just buy that adapter and now you have industry-standard video out. > So many times on my iPad I've wanted to retrieve a file such as an animation I made with an app, and the hassle to bring it across to my desktop PC.. This is not a lock-in problem either. I assume you're saying that this particular app requires using iTunes to get the file (though if so that's really surprising, it's been literally years since I've seen an app that actually requires using iTunes file browsing). If there's no easy way to do that, that's a problem with the app. Most apps that let you create content also have a variety of mechanisms for getting the content off of the device. iTunes file browsing dates back from a time when almost everybody actually regularly synced their iOS devices with their computer, and so it wasn't a problem to require using iTunes to transfer files back and forth. Now that syncing with iTunes isn't something everybody is expected to do anymore, there's no reason for apps to be stuck in the past and require using iTunes file syncing to transfer files. So really, your complaint should be with the app's choice of file syncing mechanisms, and not this weird insinuation that the existence of the completely optional feature that is iTunes file syncing is some form of lock-in.