8 ms·

I keep having this fantasy that Jobs would never have stood for the erosion of the pro level products into thin clients, like the new MBP, the lack of updates t

by CPLX 10y ago

I keep having this fantasy that Jobs would never have stood for the erosion of the pro level products into thin clients, like the new MBP, the lack of updates to the Mac Pro line, retrograde motion on the Mini, etc. But seeing this, and the 4-5 perfunctory lines devoted at the end to the entire Mac line, makes me realize that's probably just a fantasy after all. This is where Apple has been going for awhile apparently.

jbob2000 10y ago
Did you miss all the "be better than Google"? He seemed intensely scared of them, to the point where he wanted Apple to focus 100% on beating them. Google doesn't do laptop/desktop computers (until this year with the pixel). We are seeing this version of Apple come to fruition; all-in on mobile and consumer software services.
- cptskippy 10y ago
  Job's fear of Google is justified. He sees the dwindling PC sales and knows that they're not the future. He sees Google as a threat because they don't even bother with PCs, they're a cloud first company and Job's knows that's where Apple needs to go next to avoid losing relevance. It seems pretty obvious today but 6 years ago that was pretty forward thinking.
- charlesism 10y ago
  I'm sure "scared of them" played some part, but "angry at them" played a larger one. This wasn't too long after Google blind-sided Apple by entering the phone market, which SJ somehow thought was a betrayal. To be fair, they did so while Schmidt was actually still sitting on the board at Apple, which might be what really ticked Steve off.
  - toyg 10y ago
    And they did so with an OS based on a technology, er, "borrowed" from SUN and now owned by his great friend Larry Ellison. Lots of straws on that camel...
    - Pigo 10y ago
      It's not like Google helped Oracle continue to fail at having their own mobile platform. Jonathan Schwartz, SUN CEO at the time, witnessed in support of Google, as he encouraged them to use it. The whole point was to open more technologies to foster creative ideas, while Apple continues to cherry pick from for their "locked users".
    - matheweis 10y ago
      And don't forget that Google's Eric Schmidt was on the Apple board at the time... he would literally be asked to leave the room when they discussed the iPhone.
- icantdrive55 10y ago
  He wasen't always right. I still wish he ran to conventional medicine the minute he was told he had a tumor. (But then again--I have no idea know bad the cancer was, or what doctors told him, etc.) I said that because I miss Apple under his watch--immensely. Now my emotions are out of the way; I'm shocked Google didn't blow everyone away with a hardware device. I can see why Job's thought Google would be the competition. It's so hard to predict the future. The guys with money can bet on it. I guess that's the game/luck of it? As to Google's hardware--I sometimes think that company has too many chiefs, and not enough soldiers. Too many geniuses? Not enough poor, regular guys? Personally, I want a, low monthly fee, smart phone. Something with low monthly data rates. Something that uses wifi when it can. Something along the lines of Republic Wireless. I was hoping that would be the new Google phone. I do think, one day, Google will have that one hardware product we line up for.
- blumentopf 10y ago
  > Google doesn't do laptop/desktop computers They do: "Google Chromebooks outsell Apple Macs" (May 2016) http://www.businessinsider.com/google-chromebooks-outsell-apple-macs-2016-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/google-chromebooks-outsell-ap...
toyg 10y ago
You could look at it in another way though. This is not a will, it's a meeting agenda; Mac didn't need to be discussed at Top100 because Jobs knew the dynamics of that market inside out, there was nothing to discuss. The overall direction of travel and the emphasis on i-devices were pretty clear, yes, but it was uncharted territory so that's what had to be assessed. The view of the PC as home hub was still there, for example - that's now been ditched in the Apple world, considering Apple TV is an also-ran and iMac / MacMini are effectively dead. Steve might not have done that, not like this anyway.
- cptskippy 10y ago
  > Mac didn't need to be discussed at Top100 because Jobs knew the dynamics of that market inside out, there was nothing to discuss. Did we read the same email? Half of the "Strategy" bullet points relate direclty to the PC and it's role. He points out that Apple is the inventor of the Digital Hub concept with the PC being the hub. He goes on to say that the concept has since evolved to the Cloud being the hub, not the PC, but Apple hasn't evolved and is in danger of losing out if they do not transition away from the PC to cloud. He specifically says the PC is just another client. – Post PC era- Apple is the first company to get here – Post PC products now 66% of our revenues – iPad outsold Mac within 6 months – Post PC era = more mobile (smaller, thinner, lighter) + communications + apps + cloud services – we invented Digital Hub concept – PC as hub for all your digital assets – digital hub (center of our universe) is moving from PC to cloud – PC now just another client alongside iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, … – Apple is in danger of hanging on to old paradigm too long (innovator’s dilemma) The bullet points and the fact that Apple dropped "Computer" from it's name to focus on Consumer Electronics should give you an understanding of Apple's strategy and how they see the PC. They're clearly moving away from the Pro Tools segment that supported them for so long and they run the risk of being the next Sony CE when someone else invents the next iPod.
  - toyg 10y ago
    I don't disagree, my remark was more shaded by the MBP debacle: there is nothing in that email saying "our pro tools should suck from now on". There is an emphasis on i-devices and cloud (and lock-in...), of course, and on new strategies, which is what has to be hashed out; but there would have been no need to hash out what a great Pro laptop is or what a great desktop is, since Steve would have seen a few in his time. He's had quite a few run-ins with his developer ecosystem throughout the years, so he knew pretty well what you can and cannot sell to that crowd.
ghostly_s 10y ago
There's surely valid criticism of the new MBPs, but calling them "thin clients" is patently ridiculous.
- CPLX 10y ago
  Yes of course. But the idea that it's the direction they're headed in was lifted straight from Steve's own words in the original post: "PC now just another client alongside iPhone, iPad, iPod touch"
dictum 10y ago
This is foreshadowed in section 1: – Post PC products now 66% of our revenues – iPad outsold Mac within 6 months – Post PC era = more mobile (smaller, thinner, lighter) + communications + apps + cloud services – PC now just another client alongside iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, … Emphasis on "just another client".
- mathnetic 10y ago
  That section was more about the PC shifting away from being the hub through which all your devices are connected. It implies that PC sales are no longer crucial in order to "lock customers" into their ecosystem, but it's clear that he still wanted to create valuable products that would be tied together.
- solatic 10y ago
  Still questionable. Steve could have allowed the Mac to become "just another client," sure, but it could've been a professional-focused client. The fact that all your data was moving to the cloud for easier access isn't a negation of bringing that data back down to a more capable machine for production. I mean, the post-PC era came, but it's not like our collective productivity went off a cliff with it, nor that the majority of our productivity moved to mobile. It's just moved to non-Apple platforms.
- walterbell 10y ago
  – we invented Digital Hub concept – PC as hub for all your digital assets – contacts, calendars, bookmarks, photos, music, videos – digital hub (center of our universe) is moving from PC to cloud This was 5 years ago. Since then, iPad sales have declined and iPhone sales are flat. iCloud did _not_ become the consumer's single hub for all devices. Amazon Echo created a new device category and Siri did not take over the world. IoT is fragmented chaos. One can imagine that Jobs would have adjusted his 2011 strategy in response to the changing market. If Jobs faced a choice of promoting "Apple PC as digital hub" or "non-Apple cloud(s) as aggregate digital hub", which would be better? Apple has thrived by integrating hardware and software. In the "cloud", this integration advantage is lost as Microsoft aggressively ports their apps to Azure cloud + iOS devices. Jobs could have read the writing on the cloud and repositioned the Mac as IoT digital hub and cloud cache, via macOS Sierra Server ($20 in the Mac App Store, but could use some love, http://www.apple.com/macos/server/ http://www.apple.com/macos/server/).
mercer 10y ago
That the Macs are not given as much attention doesn't surprise me. It seems 'fitting' that they would gravitate toward the current MacBook end of the spectrum considering that a huge amount of users don't really need much more than that. Cutting out the middle-ground (MacBook Air) makes a certain amount of sense. But I expected that they'd keep a high-performance developer-focused MacBook (the Pro) for all those guys who are actually making the iOS/MacOS apps. And part of me hoped they'd show some love for that target audience. On the other hand, who am I kidding. As I'm getting more and more into 'native' development and as my laptop is showing its age when I use Xcode, I'll probably eventually cave and get a MacBook Pro because I can't do my work without it. It's just not nice, I guess. But then Apple isn't particularly known for being nice, so it makes business-sense. iOS/MacOS devs will still get their new machines, even if they end up feeling fleeced.
- corv 10y ago
  I think in the long run Apple will try to move developers over to iPad Pro. Rudimentary Xcode functionality is already in place on iOS.
  - mercer 10y ago
    Interesting. I find it hard to see how they could pull that off, but who knows...
    - equalarrow 10y ago
      I had a buddy who dreamed about this when the iPad first came out. Swift Playgrounds is a first step in that direction. There's still a lot of work to do, but you can technically write Swift on an iPad right now, so why not just add an IDE that will compile directly to device (no simulator required). Would I be surprised to see this happen for an iPad 'Pro' a few years down the line? Nope, not at all, especially given how Apple touted that the Pro cpu specs can take on tasks once reserved for "workstations and PCs".
      - mercer 10y ago
gcatalfamo 10y ago
while I see nothing wrong with this perspective, my question would be: "But what should developers use from now and onwards?" To make iOS apps you still need (and you always probably will) a mac.
mmariani 10y ago
Just today I was at a Apple Store to get my iPhone replaced under warranty and I saw a customer asking about the delivery time for a Mac Pro. The genius said to him point blank that they couldn't order one for him. That means two things, it's getting updated soon or it's getting axed.
skierscott 10y ago
> pro level products into thin clients I guess Apple is skating to where the puck is going to be. I have a MBP and any serious computation is done on either EC2 or the cluster downstairs (a fairly sizable cluster). I do think that they optimized for thinness to much in the new MBPs. If I were buying I'd buy an older MBP for the other other ports (SD card is going away but I don't know about the rest).

by CPLX 10y ago

jbob2000 10y ago

Did you miss all the "be better than Google"? He seemed intensely scared of them, to the point where he wanted Apple to focus 100% on beating them. Google doesn't do laptop/desktop computers (until this year with the pixel). We are seeing this version of Apple come to fruition; all-in on mobile and consumer software services.

cptskippy 10y ago
Job's fear of Google is justified. He sees the dwindling PC sales and knows that they're not the future. He sees Google as a threat because they don't even bother with PCs, they're a cloud first company and Job's knows that's where Apple needs to go next to avoid losing relevance. It seems pretty obvious today but 6 years ago that was pretty forward thinking.
charlesism 10y ago
I'm sure "scared of them" played some part, but "angry at them" played a larger one. This wasn't too long after Google blind-sided Apple by entering the phone market, which SJ somehow thought was a betrayal. To be fair, they did so while Schmidt was actually still sitting on the board at Apple, which might be what really ticked Steve off.
- toyg 10y ago
  And they did so with an OS based on a technology, er, "borrowed" from SUN and now owned by his great friend Larry Ellison. Lots of straws on that camel...
  - Pigo 10y ago
    It's not like Google helped Oracle continue to fail at having their own mobile platform. Jonathan Schwartz, SUN CEO at the time, witnessed in support of Google, as he encouraged them to use it. The whole point was to open more technologies to foster creative ideas, while Apple continues to cherry pick from for their "locked users".
  - matheweis 10y ago
    And don't forget that Google's Eric Schmidt was on the Apple board at the time... he would literally be asked to leave the room when they discussed the iPhone.
icantdrive55 10y ago
He wasen't always right. I still wish he ran to conventional medicine the minute he was told he had a tumor. (But then again--I have no idea know bad the cancer was, or what doctors told him, etc.) I said that because I miss Apple under his watch--immensely. Now my emotions are out of the way; I'm shocked Google didn't blow everyone away with a hardware device. I can see why Job's thought Google would be the competition. It's so hard to predict the future. The guys with money can bet on it. I guess that's the game/luck of it? As to Google's hardware--I sometimes think that company has too many chiefs, and not enough soldiers. Too many geniuses? Not enough poor, regular guys? Personally, I want a, low monthly fee, smart phone. Something with low monthly data rates. Something that uses wifi when it can. Something along the lines of Republic Wireless. I was hoping that would be the new Google phone. I do think, one day, Google will have that one hardware product we line up for.
blumentopf 10y ago
> Google doesn't do laptop/desktop computers They do: "Google Chromebooks outsell Apple Macs" (May 2016) http://www.businessinsider.com/google-chromebooks-outsell-apple-macs-2016-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/google-chromebooks-outsell-ap...

toyg 10y ago

You could look at it in another way though. This is not a will, it's a meeting agenda; Mac didn't need to be discussed at Top100 because Jobs knew the dynamics of that market inside out, there was nothing to discuss. The overall direction of travel and the emphasis on i-devices were pretty clear, yes, but it was uncharted territory so that's what had to be assessed. The view of the PC as home hub was still there, for example - that's now been ditched in the Apple world, considering Apple TV is an also-ran and iMac / MacMini are effectively dead. Steve might not have done that, not like this anyway.

cptskippy 10y ago
> Mac didn't need to be discussed at Top100 because Jobs knew the dynamics of that market inside out, there was nothing to discuss. Did we read the same email? Half of the "Strategy" bullet points relate direclty to the PC and it's role. He points out that Apple is the inventor of the Digital Hub concept with the PC being the hub. He goes on to say that the concept has since evolved to the Cloud being the hub, not the PC, but Apple hasn't evolved and is in danger of losing out if they do not transition away from the PC to cloud. He specifically says the PC is just another client. – Post PC era- Apple is the first company to get here – Post PC products now 66% of our revenues – iPad outsold Mac within 6 months – Post PC era = more mobile (smaller, thinner, lighter) + communications + apps + cloud services – we invented Digital Hub concept – PC as hub for all your digital assets – digital hub (center of our universe) is moving from PC to cloud – PC now just another client alongside iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, … – Apple is in danger of hanging on to old paradigm too long (innovator’s dilemma) The bullet points and the fact that Apple dropped "Computer" from it's name to focus on Consumer Electronics should give you an understanding of Apple's strategy and how they see the PC. They're clearly moving away from the Pro Tools segment that supported them for so long and they run the risk of being the next Sony CE when someone else invents the next iPod.
- toyg 10y ago
  I don't disagree, my remark was more shaded by the MBP debacle: there is nothing in that email saying "our pro tools should suck from now on". There is an emphasis on i-devices and cloud (and lock-in...), of course, and on new strategies, which is what has to be hashed out; but there would have been no need to hash out what a great Pro laptop is or what a great desktop is, since Steve would have seen a few in his time. He's had quite a few run-ins with his developer ecosystem throughout the years, so he knew pretty well what you can and cannot sell to that crowd.

ghostly_s 10y ago

There's surely valid criticism of the new MBPs, but calling them "thin clients" is patently ridiculous.

CPLX 10y ago
Yes of course. But the idea that it's the direction they're headed in was lifted straight from Steve's own words in the original post: "PC now just another client alongside iPhone, iPad, iPod touch"

dictum 10y ago

This is foreshadowed in section 1: – Post PC products now 66% of our revenues – iPad outsold Mac within 6 months – Post PC era = more mobile (smaller, thinner, lighter) + communications + apps + cloud services – PC now just another client alongside iPhone, iPad, iPod touch, … Emphasis on "just another client".

mathnetic 10y ago
That section was more about the PC shifting away from being the hub through which all your devices are connected. It implies that PC sales are no longer crucial in order to "lock customers" into their ecosystem, but it's clear that he still wanted to create valuable products that would be tied together.
solatic 10y ago
Still questionable. Steve could have allowed the Mac to become "just another client," sure, but it could've been a professional-focused client. The fact that all your data was moving to the cloud for easier access isn't a negation of bringing that data back down to a more capable machine for production. I mean, the post-PC era came, but it's not like our collective productivity went off a cliff with it, nor that the majority of our productivity moved to mobile. It's just moved to non-Apple platforms.
walterbell 10y ago
– we invented Digital Hub concept – PC as hub for all your digital assets – contacts, calendars, bookmarks, photos, music, videos – digital hub (center of our universe) is moving from PC to cloud This was 5 years ago. Since then, iPad sales have declined and iPhone sales are flat. iCloud did _not_ become the consumer's single hub for all devices. Amazon Echo created a new device category and Siri did not take over the world. IoT is fragmented chaos. One can imagine that Jobs would have adjusted his 2011 strategy in response to the changing market. If Jobs faced a choice of promoting "Apple PC as digital hub" or "non-Apple cloud(s) as aggregate digital hub", which would be better? Apple has thrived by integrating hardware and software. In the "cloud", this integration advantage is lost as Microsoft aggressively ports their apps to Azure cloud + iOS devices. Jobs could have read the writing on the cloud and repositioned the Mac as IoT digital hub and cloud cache, via macOS Sierra Server ($20 in the Mac App Store, but could use some love, http://www.apple.com/macos/server/ http://www.apple.com/macos/server/).

mercer 10y ago

That the Macs are not given as much attention doesn't surprise me. It seems 'fitting' that they would gravitate toward the current MacBook end of the spectrum considering that a huge amount of users don't really need much more than that. Cutting out the middle-ground (MacBook Air) makes a certain amount of sense. But I expected that they'd keep a high-performance developer-focused MacBook (the Pro) for all those guys who are actually making the iOS/MacOS apps. And part of me hoped they'd show some love for that target audience. On the other hand, who am I kidding. As I'm getting more and more into 'native' development and as my laptop is showing its age when I use Xcode, I'll probably eventually cave and get a MacBook Pro because I can't do my work without it. It's just not nice, I guess. But then Apple isn't particularly known for being nice, so it makes business-sense. iOS/MacOS devs will still get their new machines, even if they end up feeling fleeced.

corv 10y ago
I think in the long run Apple will try to move developers over to iPad Pro. Rudimentary Xcode functionality is already in place on iOS.
- mercer 10y ago
  Interesting. I find it hard to see how they could pull that off, but who knows...
  - equalarrow 10y ago
    I had a buddy who dreamed about this when the iPad first came out. Swift Playgrounds is a first step in that direction. There's still a lot of work to do, but you can technically write Swift on an iPad right now, so why not just add an IDE that will compile directly to device (no simulator required). Would I be surprised to see this happen for an iPad 'Pro' a few years down the line? Nope, not at all, especially given how Apple touted that the Pro cpu specs can take on tasks once reserved for "workstations and PCs".
    - mercer 10y ago

gcatalfamo 10y ago

while I see nothing wrong with this perspective, my question would be: "But what should developers use from now and onwards?" To make iOS apps you still need (and you always probably will) a mac.

mmariani 10y ago

Just today I was at a Apple Store to get my iPhone replaced under warranty and I saw a customer asking about the delivery time for a Mac Pro. The genius said to him point blank that they couldn't order one for him. That means two things, it's getting updated soon or it's getting axed.

skierscott 10y ago

> pro level products into thin clients I guess Apple is skating to where the puck is going to be. I have a MBP and any serious computation is done on either EC2 or the cluster downstairs (a fairly sizable cluster). I do think that they optimized for thinness to much in the new MBPs. If I were buying I'd buy an older MBP for the other other ports (SD card is going away but I don't know about the rest).