7 ms·

I wonder how many of the theories could be applied to actual urban planning.

hugh3 17y ago
A grid of subway stations with a stop at every block? Sounds rather expensive. Besides, all attempts to build "perfect" cities in real life have resulted in dull and lifeless places. A certain amount of chaos is necessary to keep cities liveable.
- dantheman 17y ago
  Agreed, simcity uses a static model. So the rules can be deduced. In reality we don't actually know what the rules are and they are much more dynamic -- i.e. the introduction of the internet, the car, the cell phone, etc. These have impacts on cities, and what people expect from them.
- brianobush 17y ago
  what if the subways weren't subways we know of today, but rather conveyor belt like roads. might be feasible if in a more automated future.
  - hugh3 17y ago
    Heck, it's feasible now, but the power consumption and maintenance costs would be fairly insane compared to the plain old cars-and-roads solution. (How often do you see an escalator broken down? Pretty damn often.)
    - rbritton 17y ago
      The vast majority of the stopped escalators I've seen are because some idiot thought it'd be fun to hit the stop button.
      - coderdude 17y ago
        How were you able to verify this?
        chaosmachine 17y ago
        Perhaps he's the one pushing the button.
        deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
    - pyre 17y ago
      You see more stopped escalators because the escalator is the equivalent of combining the train and the track into the same thing. Tracks don't require the level of maintenance that trains do. Trains can be taken off of the tracks for maintenance, so you don't see the entire system break down when maintenance is done. I use the rail system in Portland for transportation, and I can say that they fairly regularly have issues with trains on the tracks, or taking down sections of track for maintenance over a weekend.
  - rlpb 17y ago
    This is stuff of science fiction. I remembered Arthur C. Clarke for having written this, but apparently H. G. Wells was first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_walkway#Science_fiction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_walkway#Science_fiction
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      I recommend reading Wells' "When the Sleeper Wakes" - the description of "future" technology is fascinating (particularly the moving walkways)
    - ovi256 17y ago
      Jules Verne did it before that, in the Floating Island if I remember correctly. Which is a parody of 19 century USA, by the way.
  - Gormo 17y ago
    ...as long as it's not built by the same people who implemented it at DFW. That place is hell to navigate.
- mixmax 17y ago
  This is exactly Jane Jacobs thesis in the greatly influential book "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" What Jacobs found is that communities thrive when there's a certain amount of chaos and layered complexity that arises from people interacting withe each other and the environment. That's why places such as Greenwich village and many old European cities seem so vibrant and full of life - they're not centrally planned, they've had time to mature and people have had the possibility to interact with the environment and each other in the chaotic neighborhood.
  - Gormo 17y ago
    I think it's a pretty straightforward phenomenon: "chaos" = emergence and evolution. Prescriptive design = stagnation. No intentionally-designed system has ever scaled to match the nuance of emergent complexity.
- blhack 17y ago
  Nature (including what humans decide to do) is very good at iterative optimization. When people do something and it works, they tend to continue doing that. The reason that overly-planned cities (I live in one: Phoenix) don't work is that it's impossible to out-think millions of people all working to optimize your city in parallel all the time. Obviously you need some urban planning to assist with things that regular citizens don't understand (utilities), but for the most part, if you let people be, they will build a city on their own.
  - ido 17y ago
    I think your conclusion (only do the minimum planning you absolutely can't live without) is too extreme in the other direction (compare Huston with Portland or Vancouver). I don't know what the ideal level of urban planing and regulation is, but I think it's probably somewhere in the middle of the road.
barredo 17y ago
I would say almost anything: There are hundreds of libraries build together to improve certain life-values (education levels?) in those maps.

hugh3 17y ago

A grid of subway stations with a stop at every block? Sounds rather expensive. Besides, all attempts to build "perfect" cities in real life have resulted in dull and lifeless places. A certain amount of chaos is necessary to keep cities liveable.

dantheman 17y ago
Agreed, simcity uses a static model. So the rules can be deduced. In reality we don't actually know what the rules are and they are much more dynamic -- i.e. the introduction of the internet, the car, the cell phone, etc. These have impacts on cities, and what people expect from them.
brianobush 17y ago
what if the subways weren't subways we know of today, but rather conveyor belt like roads. might be feasible if in a more automated future.
- hugh3 17y ago
  Heck, it's feasible now, but the power consumption and maintenance costs would be fairly insane compared to the plain old cars-and-roads solution. (How often do you see an escalator broken down? Pretty damn often.)
  - rbritton 17y ago
    The vast majority of the stopped escalators I've seen are because some idiot thought it'd be fun to hit the stop button.
    - coderdude 17y ago
      How were you able to verify this?
      - chaosmachine 17y ago
        Perhaps he's the one pushing the button.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
  - pyre 17y ago
    You see more stopped escalators because the escalator is the equivalent of combining the train and the track into the same thing. Tracks don't require the level of maintenance that trains do. Trains can be taken off of the tracks for maintenance, so you don't see the entire system break down when maintenance is done. I use the rail system in Portland for transportation, and I can say that they fairly regularly have issues with trains on the tracks, or taking down sections of track for maintenance over a weekend.
- rlpb 17y ago
  This is stuff of science fiction. I remembered Arthur C. Clarke for having written this, but apparently H. G. Wells was first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_walkway#Science_fiction http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_walkway#Science_fiction
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    I recommend reading Wells' "When the Sleeper Wakes" - the description of "future" technology is fascinating (particularly the moving walkways)
  - ovi256 17y ago
    Jules Verne did it before that, in the Floating Island if I remember correctly. Which is a parody of 19 century USA, by the way.
- Gormo 17y ago
  ...as long as it's not built by the same people who implemented it at DFW. That place is hell to navigate.
mixmax 17y ago
This is exactly Jane Jacobs thesis in the greatly influential book "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" What Jacobs found is that communities thrive when there's a certain amount of chaos and layered complexity that arises from people interacting withe each other and the environment. That's why places such as Greenwich village and many old European cities seem so vibrant and full of life - they're not centrally planned, they've had time to mature and people have had the possibility to interact with the environment and each other in the chaotic neighborhood.
- Gormo 17y ago
  I think it's a pretty straightforward phenomenon: "chaos" = emergence and evolution. Prescriptive design = stagnation. No intentionally-designed system has ever scaled to match the nuance of emergent complexity.
blhack 17y ago
Nature (including what humans decide to do) is very good at iterative optimization. When people do something and it works, they tend to continue doing that. The reason that overly-planned cities (I live in one: Phoenix) don't work is that it's impossible to out-think millions of people all working to optimize your city in parallel all the time. Obviously you need some urban planning to assist with things that regular citizens don't understand (utilities), but for the most part, if you let people be, they will build a city on their own.
- ido 17y ago
  I think your conclusion (only do the minimum planning you absolutely can't live without) is too extreme in the other direction (compare Huston with Portland or Vancouver). I don't know what the ideal level of urban planing and regulation is, but I think it's probably somewhere in the middle of the road.

barredo 17y ago

I would say almost anything: There are hundreds of libraries build together to improve certain life-values (education levels?) in those maps.