6 ms·

Indian PSU research centers are well-known for being incompetent (including DRDO, CSIR, HAL...) [1]; in this ISRO is something of an oasis (or so I've heard).

Indian PSU research centers are well-known for being incompetent (including DRDO, CSIR, HAL...) [1]; in this ISRO is something of an oasis (or so I've heard). These orgs are generally neither nimble, nor particularly interested in acquiring talent, unlike their American competitors (or even NASA). Hiring is often one large nationwide JEE-like exam held once a year to recruit new engineers. Not surprisingly few Engineers that end up working there are from top colleges. Given all this, it's not clear how long ISRO will be able to hold on to its first mover advantage, with regards to cheap launches. While INR being undervalued may be one advantage, it may not prove to be enough to compensate for bad logistics and attrition. Admittedly though, the latter are not as big problems for ISRO, as they are for manufacturing companies. If there are folks from ISRO here on HN, I'd love to know about their management/coding practices and the like. In any case, the whole "defense" line is a non-sequitur - Everyone knows that the Indian bureaucracy leaks like a sewer. - DRDO is hardly an organization that needs fearing; apart from the above anecdotal data, most of the components/tech used by the organization are imported. A Homi Bhabha is not apparent in the current state apparatus. - The state has hardly had any real geopolitical goals (after Nehru-Indira Gandhi). [1] Haldane called CSIR, "Center for the suppression of independent research".

pm90 10y ago
The assertions of incompetence of Indian PSU's are not without merit, although I think you are taking a rather pessimistic view of institutions. First of all, there are a whole lot of talented engineers in India, simply because of the population itself. Few go to the top colleges that you speak of and graduating from there doesn't necessarily mean they are the "best". So you can't take a lack of graduates from those colleges as a sign of lack of competence. Next, good institutions can take even "mediocre" people and enable them to do great work (Notice that I use "enable" and not "guarantee"). ISRO seems to have created such a culture, and as long as that tradition/culture continues, it should continue to do very well.
- gnipgnip 10y ago
  That's true; indeed, the fact that ISRO does so well supports what you claim. That however does not contradict the fact that India's exam system also filters out a lot of smart people, and trains them really well... most of whom have historically have left for the US.
  - shripadk 10y ago
    That trend slowed down a long time ago. There are as many smart people in India as there are in the US. Those who migrated/are migrating to the US, migrate for greener pastures. There is no reason to believe that those who migrate to US are necessarily better than their Indian counterparts. In fact, I know quite a few who got calls from top-tier colleges in US (Stanford/Harvard etc) but chose to stay back in India and launch their own startups.
manishsharan 10y ago
You make a lot of sweeping disdainful generalization and I don't have time to correct all of them. However, I can speak about DRDO-- I began my s/w career as a student intern in DRDO -- I worked in a lab that was developing Nag anti tank missiles. This was a hard and complex undertaking and we had very few resources. TCS etc have better computers than DRDO . And yet the people I worked were dedicated professionals and believed in their mission . And the Nag anti-tank missile is success. I don't think I will change your opinion ; I just want to point out to anyone who might take you seriously that you are full of shit.
- option_greek 10y ago
  Weirdly, I had an opposite experience as an intern in DRDO. I found the employees wasting enormous amount of time on tea/lunch breaks and waiting at the swipe gate 15 min in advance in the evenings to bug out. The low level cadre are the worst in this. Scientists (regardless of their level) seem to be passionate about their work but the support personnel assigned to them hinder a lot. A lot of manufacturing (and design) seem to be outsourced to third parties and the highest cadre is busy minting money from these contracts. I felt sad about state of things during my internship - considering that it was known to be in great condition when APJ was around.
  - manishsharan 10y ago
    That is true -- the admin folks were awful. But the geeks , scientists and engineers , were dedicated and professional. Of course I was there in '89-90-91. That may be a different era but the Nag missile is still performing. I wrote some doppler effect processing libraries in assembly; my supervisor to knew how to squeeze the maximum performance out of assembly code. It was a fun and educational experience.
rounak 10y ago
Somewhat related. Three ISRO scientists did an AMA a couple of years back. https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/1ujcmo/we_are_three_isro_scientists_here_to_answer_your/ https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/1ujcmo/we_are_three_...
thewhitetulip 10y ago
Good lord, I don't think there is such thing as "attrition" from ISRO, where do you go from ISRO? People don't work for ISRO if money is their #1 criteria, people work for ISRO/DRDO etc if they want to serve their nation, it is much like the armed forces. From your comment, one can only say that you have 0 knowledge about India/culture and DRDO, you are entitled to have an opinion but please don't have opinions based on incorrect facts/assumptions. >Given all this, it's not clear how long ISRO will be able to hold on to its first mover advantage, with regards to cheap launches It isn't "first mover advantage". The term for it is being nimble. ISRO/DRDO run a lot like startups who have little funding, they have brilliant scientists who want to SERVE the nation, also there is no other org you'd work after you leave ISRO/DRDO, there is no Lockheed Martin equivalent in India! >DRDO is hardly an organization that needs fearing; apart from the above anecdotal data What data? It isn't just about DRDO, you don't need to "fear" India, don't you know that there have been so many terror attacks on Indian soil and India has never retaliated, only now have we done a surgical strike. So yeah, you never have to fear India at all. If you ignore the "invasion" of Goa when the Indian union was relatively new (and the Shri Vijaya Kingdom which extended to Malaysia) India never attacked another country and it won't, because now, the country faces much larger problems, and India never was territory hungry. >- The state has hardly had any real geopolitical goals (after Nehru-Indira Gandhi). Yes, it doesn't. Also, programming isn't as mainstream in India as it is in the US.

pm90 10y ago

The assertions of incompetence of Indian PSU's are not without merit, although I think you are taking a rather pessimistic view of institutions. First of all, there are a whole lot of talented engineers in India, simply because of the population itself. Few go to the top colleges that you speak of and graduating from there doesn't necessarily mean they are the "best". So you can't take a lack of graduates from those colleges as a sign of lack of competence. Next, good institutions can take even "mediocre" people and enable them to do great work (Notice that I use "enable" and not "guarantee"). ISRO seems to have created such a culture, and as long as that tradition/culture continues, it should continue to do very well.

gnipgnip 10y ago
That's true; indeed, the fact that ISRO does so well supports what you claim. That however does not contradict the fact that India's exam system also filters out a lot of smart people, and trains them really well... most of whom have historically have left for the US.
- shripadk 10y ago
  That trend slowed down a long time ago. There are as many smart people in India as there are in the US. Those who migrated/are migrating to the US, migrate for greener pastures. There is no reason to believe that those who migrate to US are necessarily better than their Indian counterparts. In fact, I know quite a few who got calls from top-tier colleges in US (Stanford/Harvard etc) but chose to stay back in India and launch their own startups.

manishsharan 10y ago

You make a lot of sweeping disdainful generalization and I don't have time to correct all of them. However, I can speak about DRDO-- I began my s/w career as a student intern in DRDO -- I worked in a lab that was developing Nag anti tank missiles. This was a hard and complex undertaking and we had very few resources. TCS etc have better computers than DRDO . And yet the people I worked were dedicated professionals and believed in their mission . And the Nag anti-tank missile is success. I don't think I will change your opinion ; I just want to point out to anyone who might take you seriously that you are full of shit.

option_greek 10y ago
Weirdly, I had an opposite experience as an intern in DRDO. I found the employees wasting enormous amount of time on tea/lunch breaks and waiting at the swipe gate 15 min in advance in the evenings to bug out. The low level cadre are the worst in this. Scientists (regardless of their level) seem to be passionate about their work but the support personnel assigned to them hinder a lot. A lot of manufacturing (and design) seem to be outsourced to third parties and the highest cadre is busy minting money from these contracts. I felt sad about state of things during my internship - considering that it was known to be in great condition when APJ was around.
- manishsharan 10y ago
  That is true -- the admin folks were awful. But the geeks , scientists and engineers , were dedicated and professional. Of course I was there in '89-90-91. That may be a different era but the Nag missile is still performing. I wrote some doppler effect processing libraries in assembly; my supervisor to knew how to squeeze the maximum performance out of assembly code. It was a fun and educational experience.

rounak 10y ago

Somewhat related. Three ISRO scientists did an AMA a couple of years back. https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/1ujcmo/we_are_three_isro_scientists_here_to_answer_your/ https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/1ujcmo/we_are_three_...

thewhitetulip 10y ago

Good lord, I don't think there is such thing as "attrition" from ISRO, where do you go from ISRO? People don't work for ISRO if money is their #1 criteria, people work for ISRO/DRDO etc if they want to serve their nation, it is much like the armed forces. From your comment, one can only say that you have 0 knowledge about India/culture and DRDO, you are entitled to have an opinion but please don't have opinions based on incorrect facts/assumptions. >Given all this, it's not clear how long ISRO will be able to hold on to its first mover advantage, with regards to cheap launches It isn't "first mover advantage". The term for it is being nimble. ISRO/DRDO run a lot like startups who have little funding, they have brilliant scientists who want to SERVE the nation, also there is no other org you'd work after you leave ISRO/DRDO, there is no Lockheed Martin equivalent in India! >DRDO is hardly an organization that needs fearing; apart from the above anecdotal data What data? It isn't just about DRDO, you don't need to "fear" India, don't you know that there have been so many terror attacks on Indian soil and India has never retaliated, only now have we done a surgical strike. So yeah, you never have to fear India at all. If you ignore the "invasion" of Goa when the Indian union was relatively new (and the Shri Vijaya Kingdom which extended to Malaysia) India never attacked another country and it won't, because now, the country faces much larger problems, and India never was territory hungry. >- The state has hardly had any real geopolitical goals (after Nehru-Indira Gandhi). Yes, it doesn't. Also, programming isn't as mainstream in India as it is in the US.