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That makes absolutely no sense. By definition, giving up is failure. So the options are "100% chance of failure" vs "less than 100% chance of failure", and yo

That makes absolutely no sense. By definition, giving up is failure. So the options are "100% chance of failure" vs "less than 100% chance of failure", and you think they are more likely to pick "100% chance of failure" because failure is scary?

morgante 10y ago
Obviously it doesn't make sense rationally (you miss 100% of the shots you don't take and all that), but it's emotionally very powerful. It's much easier to emotionally justify giving up (I'm not really interested in switching jobs/getting in to tech/etc.) than it is to face the prospect of being rejected many times. Humans are not rational agents.
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  You are describing the wrong group of people. The "emotionally justify giving up" you describe is precisely what we observe with the group of people who are not considered failures for doing so: women. For men, that is failure. That is not easy to justify emotionally, it is the very thing they are trying to avoid in the first place. The emotional toll of giving up is the same as the emotional toll of trying and failing: you are a loser and not a real man, you have no worth or value. This is why they try again, because it gives them another chance to succeed, and demonstrate their value and worth.
  - morgante 10y ago
    Do you have any evidence to back up that opinion, or is it just your theories on what human nature? If we want to trade opinions and anecdotes, I personally know plenty of "real men" who have justified giving up on different goals to avoid the pain of continued failure. Heck, I'll admit to having done it myself: many years ago I thought I might want to work in finance but after applying to a few banks and never hearing back I "decided" that it's not really for me when in reality I was just avoiding the pain of further rejection. I realize this sounds confrontational, but I really do want to know where you're coming from that men don't give up on things due to fear of failure. In my personal and professional lives, I see it all the time.
    - MustardTiger 10y ago
      >Do you have any evidence to back up that opinion The very article we're discussing? Remember, it shows 7 times as many women give up as men do. A generalization is not contradicted by one example to the contrary, it would need a majority of examples to the contrary. Obviously some men do give up. But only 1/7th as many as with women. I am simply supporting the explanation someone else offered: that this is because women have inherent value and men's value is purely based on their current level of success. So men have an additional strong incentive to not give up. And when they do give up, it is often just to pursue another avenue where they feel success is more likely, rather than just giving up altogether.
      - morgante 10y ago
        All that is evidence of is that women give up more often than men. That doesn't provide any evidence that it's because men's value is tied to achievement. I could just as readily argue that women give up more than men because they have stronger priors of tech not being for them (fewer peers and role models, less experience, etc.) so any evidence they get confirming that hypothesis is more likely to push them into giving up. We could, in fact, have both things happening simultaneously: some men giving up to protect their ego, but even more women giving up because they think it's not for them.
        MustardTiger 10y ago
        >All that is evidence of is that women give up more often than men Yes, that's the point. >That doesn't provide any evidence that it's because men's value is tied to achievement. Indeed, that's what we're offering a potential explanation for. >I could just as readily argue that women give up more than men because they have stronger priors of tech not being for them Then do so. Saying "I could make a bunch of other arguments but won't because I know they are contradicted by evidence" is not compelling. In fact, I find it inherently dishonest, in that you are trying to rely on the assumption that any other random explanation you could put forth is just as good, but you won't put them forth because then they would be demonstrated to not be just as good.
dozzie 10y ago
You miss an important aspect. You won't succeed in 100% cases you don't take an action, but you also don't fail due to your lack of skills in 100% cases you don't take an action. You can't be blamed for failing if you didn't even try. You can only be blamed for not succeeding.
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  No, that's not how it works, which is the point. As they said, men's value is judged on their current success. Not trying makes you just as valueless as trying and failing, it is the exact same outcome.
  - dozzie 10y ago
    > No, that's not how it works [...] Are you sure the people's feelings align with how your rational thinking goes?
    - MustardTiger 10y ago
      I am sure that assuming their behavior does not follow the obvious explanation because you simply dislike the obvious explanation is silly.

morgante 10y ago

Obviously it doesn't make sense rationally (you miss 100% of the shots you don't take and all that), but it's emotionally very powerful. It's much easier to emotionally justify giving up (I'm not really interested in switching jobs/getting in to tech/etc.) than it is to face the prospect of being rejected many times. Humans are not rational agents.

MustardTiger 10y ago
You are describing the wrong group of people. The "emotionally justify giving up" you describe is precisely what we observe with the group of people who are not considered failures for doing so: women. For men, that is failure. That is not easy to justify emotionally, it is the very thing they are trying to avoid in the first place. The emotional toll of giving up is the same as the emotional toll of trying and failing: you are a loser and not a real man, you have no worth or value. This is why they try again, because it gives them another chance to succeed, and demonstrate their value and worth.
- morgante 10y ago
  Do you have any evidence to back up that opinion, or is it just your theories on what human nature? If we want to trade opinions and anecdotes, I personally know plenty of "real men" who have justified giving up on different goals to avoid the pain of continued failure. Heck, I'll admit to having done it myself: many years ago I thought I might want to work in finance but after applying to a few banks and never hearing back I "decided" that it's not really for me when in reality I was just avoiding the pain of further rejection. I realize this sounds confrontational, but I really do want to know where you're coming from that men don't give up on things due to fear of failure. In my personal and professional lives, I see it all the time.
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    >Do you have any evidence to back up that opinion The very article we're discussing? Remember, it shows 7 times as many women give up as men do. A generalization is not contradicted by one example to the contrary, it would need a majority of examples to the contrary. Obviously some men do give up. But only 1/7th as many as with women. I am simply supporting the explanation someone else offered: that this is because women have inherent value and men's value is purely based on their current level of success. So men have an additional strong incentive to not give up. And when they do give up, it is often just to pursue another avenue where they feel success is more likely, rather than just giving up altogether.
    - morgante 10y ago
      All that is evidence of is that women give up more often than men. That doesn't provide any evidence that it's because men's value is tied to achievement. I could just as readily argue that women give up more than men because they have stronger priors of tech not being for them (fewer peers and role models, less experience, etc.) so any evidence they get confirming that hypothesis is more likely to push them into giving up. We could, in fact, have both things happening simultaneously: some men giving up to protect their ego, but even more women giving up because they think it's not for them.
      - MustardTiger 10y ago
        >All that is evidence of is that women give up more often than men Yes, that's the point. >That doesn't provide any evidence that it's because men's value is tied to achievement. Indeed, that's what we're offering a potential explanation for. >I could just as readily argue that women give up more than men because they have stronger priors of tech not being for them Then do so. Saying "I could make a bunch of other arguments but won't because I know they are contradicted by evidence" is not compelling. In fact, I find it inherently dishonest, in that you are trying to rely on the assumption that any other random explanation you could put forth is just as good, but you won't put them forth because then they would be demonstrated to not be just as good.

dozzie 10y ago

You miss an important aspect. You won't succeed in 100% cases you don't take an action, but you also don't fail due to your lack of skills in 100% cases you don't take an action. You can't be blamed for failing if you didn't even try. You can only be blamed for not succeeding.

MustardTiger 10y ago
No, that's not how it works, which is the point. As they said, men's value is judged on their current success. Not trying makes you just as valueless as trying and failing, it is the exact same outcome.
- dozzie 10y ago
  > No, that's not how it works [...] Are you sure the people's feelings align with how your rational thinking goes?
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    I am sure that assuming their behavior does not follow the obvious explanation because you simply dislike the obvious explanation is silly.