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When you have an argument that's A) deeper then a copy/paste soundbite, B) doesn't contain an informal fallacy ("how dare you try to fix this one instance of a

When you have an argument that's A) deeper then a copy/paste soundbite, B) doesn't contain an informal fallacy ("how dare you try to fix this one instance of a problem until you've fixed every other instance of it first, and I'll use this no matter which instance you go after first"), and C) doesn't require you to look like a 1990s $la$hdot u$er talking about Micro$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$oft, maybe we could have a constructive conversation. But the tone of your comment suggests you're not really interested in it, y'know?

solipsism 10y ago
Not to mention the throwaway account. I wish HN would fix that problem already. It brings the level of discourse way down.
- labster 10y ago
  I doubt they will. The universe just isn't about you, solipsism.
- throw_away_777 10y ago
  Throwaway accounts allow people to express views that aren't politically correct. If all your views are politically correct this may seem like a bad thing, but for people with views that aren't politically correct throw away accounts allow participation.
  - ap22213 10y ago
    But, if everyone uses throwaway accounts to say what they really want to say, then it just helps perpetuate the same political correctness that they dislike.
    - throw_away_777 10y ago
      I don't understand what you are trying to say - political correctness is all about preventing people from saying things that aren't "politically" correct. It is a tool for preventing discussion about topics which might offend people, and for silencing opposing views. If everyone is allowed to speak freely without the shame of not being "politically" correct than people can say what they believe. You weigh the cost of offending people against the freedom to speak out against the prevailing "politically" correct beliefs.
  - solipsism 10y ago
    Because without throwaway accounts people can't express views that aren't politically correct? Look through my history, I express such views all the time. I just don't think virtual points are so important that I need to make sure they're always going up.
    - throw_away_777 10y ago
      I looked through your history but couldn't find a comment where you were being not politically correct, but I didn't try all that hard. Regardless there are certain sentiments that you can't express even though they may be true, to me that is what "politically" correct means. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers. You can't even bring up the possibility that women are different than men as a reason there aren't more women in STEM fields without being persecuted, instead you get articles somehow twisting data to make it look like technical interviews are the main thing holding women back from tech jobs - this may be a small contributing factor, but it isn't a primary cause.
      - solipsism 10y ago
        Um.... "persecuted"? HN accounts have full support for anonymity. Why do you care if an anonymous account on some board gets "persecuted"? Where "persecuted" means you might get a -4. This is about throwaway accounts (people creating accounts on the spot to say shitty things, while having their other account for non-shitty things, so they never lose points), not anonymity.
        throw_away_777 10y ago
        A lot of people's HN accounts, at least for the people who post a lot, are not anonymous. Alternatively if you post a lot it is possible to reconstruct who you are. If comments were being down voted you wouldn't see them at the top of threads - people use throw aways for anonymity not to prevent loss of points.
        10y ago
protomyth 10y ago
As to B, I would say the biggest problem tech faces is the education specifically daycare and elementary school do not have equal gender representation or qualified, enthusiastic STEM instructors. We need to fix that and not only demonstrate in classrooms professionals working together regardless of sex and make STEM something to dream with instead of being dreaded. Until we fix the classroom that forms early childhood loves and hates, nothing is really going to work with software developers. We will get mostly outsiders that found their love outside of the system. Also, why would you want your daughters to go into a career that exhibits all the ageism of being an actress?
- BlackAura 10y ago
  It's part of the problem, but not all of the problem. There are plenty of women who want to be in STEM fields, and have pushed for that in spite of everything. It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Once in, there are so many ways that the workplace is hostile to women, and the industry even more so. That leads to a high rate of just giving up, and changing career. There's only so much bullshit you can take before just deciding that, even though you love the work, it just isn't worth your sanity. Working in a technical role in a non-tech company is often orders of magnitude better. Just like it is in many other respects, because tech companies are just horrifically broken in so many ways.
  - aianus 10y ago
    > It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Absolutely false. They even have their own hiring fairs and events that men aren't invited to. I'll give you the rest of the points in your comment but getting an entry level job is very easy for men and even easier for equally qualified women.
    - Manishearth 10y ago
      > They even have their own hiring fairs and events that men aren't invited to. That's a non sequitur; just because there are things to ease the process for them does not mean that it is easier. The job fairs would mean that it's easier, in a vacuum. It's not in a vacuum. There are other effects that the job fairs can only chip away at.

solipsism 10y ago

Not to mention the throwaway account. I wish HN would fix that problem already. It brings the level of discourse way down.

labster 10y ago
I doubt they will. The universe just isn't about you, solipsism.
throw_away_777 10y ago
Throwaway accounts allow people to express views that aren't politically correct. If all your views are politically correct this may seem like a bad thing, but for people with views that aren't politically correct throw away accounts allow participation.
- ap22213 10y ago
  But, if everyone uses throwaway accounts to say what they really want to say, then it just helps perpetuate the same political correctness that they dislike.
  - throw_away_777 10y ago
    I don't understand what you are trying to say - political correctness is all about preventing people from saying things that aren't "politically" correct. It is a tool for preventing discussion about topics which might offend people, and for silencing opposing views. If everyone is allowed to speak freely without the shame of not being "politically" correct than people can say what they believe. You weigh the cost of offending people against the freedom to speak out against the prevailing "politically" correct beliefs.
- solipsism 10y ago
  Because without throwaway accounts people can't express views that aren't politically correct? Look through my history, I express such views all the time. I just don't think virtual points are so important that I need to make sure they're always going up.
  - throw_away_777 10y ago
    I looked through your history but couldn't find a comment where you were being not politically correct, but I didn't try all that hard. Regardless there are certain sentiments that you can't express even though they may be true, to me that is what "politically" correct means. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers. You can't even bring up the possibility that women are different than men as a reason there aren't more women in STEM fields without being persecuted, instead you get articles somehow twisting data to make it look like technical interviews are the main thing holding women back from tech jobs - this may be a small contributing factor, but it isn't a primary cause.
    - solipsism 10y ago
      Um.... "persecuted"? HN accounts have full support for anonymity. Why do you care if an anonymous account on some board gets "persecuted"? Where "persecuted" means you might get a -4. This is about throwaway accounts (people creating accounts on the spot to say shitty things, while having their other account for non-shitty things, so they never lose points), not anonymity.
      - throw_away_777 10y ago
        A lot of people's HN accounts, at least for the people who post a lot, are not anonymous. Alternatively if you post a lot it is possible to reconstruct who you are. If comments were being down voted you wouldn't see them at the top of threads - people use throw aways for anonymity not to prevent loss of points.
        10y ago

protomyth 10y ago

As to B, I would say the biggest problem tech faces is the education specifically daycare and elementary school do not have equal gender representation or qualified, enthusiastic STEM instructors. We need to fix that and not only demonstrate in classrooms professionals working together regardless of sex and make STEM something to dream with instead of being dreaded. Until we fix the classroom that forms early childhood loves and hates, nothing is really going to work with software developers. We will get mostly outsiders that found their love outside of the system. Also, why would you want your daughters to go into a career that exhibits all the ageism of being an actress?

BlackAura 10y ago
It's part of the problem, but not all of the problem. There are plenty of women who want to be in STEM fields, and have pushed for that in spite of everything. It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Once in, there are so many ways that the workplace is hostile to women, and the industry even more so. That leads to a high rate of just giving up, and changing career. There's only so much bullshit you can take before just deciding that, even though you love the work, it just isn't worth your sanity. Working in a technical role in a non-tech company is often orders of magnitude better. Just like it is in many other respects, because tech companies are just horrifically broken in so many ways.
- aianus 10y ago
  > It's hard to actually get into a STEM job as a woman, regardless of education or experience, because of various biases in hiring. Absolutely false. They even have their own hiring fairs and events that men aren't invited to. I'll give you the rest of the points in your comment but getting an entry level job is very easy for men and even easier for equally qualified women.
  - Manishearth 10y ago
    > They even have their own hiring fairs and events that men aren't invited to. That's a non sequitur; just because there are things to ease the process for them does not mean that it is easier. The job fairs would mean that it's easier, in a vacuum. It's not in a vacuum. There are other effects that the job fairs can only chip away at.