6 ms·

Wouldn't the message of "you are your accomplishments" make men more likely to give up after a failure rather than less?

taneq 10y ago
Subtle(ish) distinction: You aren't your past accomplishments, you are your capability to generate future accomplishments. Who is more likely to persevere; someone who believes they have to keep achieving things or they are worthless, or someone to whom achievements are a nice bonus to the intrinsic value that they already have?
- morgante 10y ago
  I'm pretty sure the psychological research would say the latter. Failure is a lot less scary when your ego isn't tied up in it.
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    That makes absolutely no sense. By definition, giving up is failure. So the options are "100% chance of failure" vs "less than 100% chance of failure", and you think they are more likely to pick "100% chance of failure" because failure is scary?
    - morgante 10y ago
      Obviously it doesn't make sense rationally (you miss 100% of the shots you don't take and all that), but it's emotionally very powerful. It's much easier to emotionally justify giving up (I'm not really interested in switching jobs/getting in to tech/etc.) than it is to face the prospect of being rejected many times. Humans are not rational agents.
      - MustardTiger 10y ago
        You are describing the wrong group of people. The "emotionally justify giving up" you describe is precisely what we observe with the group of people who are not considered failures for doing so: women. For men, that is failure. That is not easy to justify emotionally, it is the very thing they are trying to avoid in the first place. The emotional toll of giving up is the same as the emotional toll of trying and failing: you are a loser and not a real man, you have no worth or value. This is why they try again, because it gives them another chance to succeed, and demonstrate their value and worth.
        morgante 10y ago
        Do you have any evidence to back up that opinion, or is it just your theories on what human nature? If we want to trade opinions and anecdotes, I personally know plenty of "real men" who have justified giving up on different goals to avoid the pain of continued failure. Heck, I'll admit to having done it myself: many years ago I thought I might want to work in finance but after applying to a few banks and never hearing back I "decided" that it's not really for me when in reality I was just avoiding the pain of further rejection. I realize this sounds confrontational, but I really do want to know where you're coming from that men don't give up on things due to fear of failure. In my personal and professional lives, I see it all the time.
        MustardTiger 10y ago
        >Do you have any evidence to back up that opinion The very article we're discussing? Remember, it shows 7 times as many women give up as men do. A generalization is not contradicted by one example to the contrary, it would need a majority of examples to the contrary. Obviously some men do give up. But only 1/7th as many as with women. I am simply supporting the explanation someone else offered: that this is because women have inherent value and men's value is purely based on their current level of success. So men have an additional strong incentive to not give up. And when they do give up, it is often just to pursue another avenue where they feel success is more likely, rather than just giving up altogether.
        10y ago
    - dozzie 10y ago
      You miss an important aspect. You won't succeed in 100% cases you don't take an action, but you also don't fail due to your lack of skills in 100% cases you don't take an action. You can't be blamed for failing if you didn't even try. You can only be blamed for not succeeding.
      - MustardTiger 10y ago
        No, that's not how it works, which is the point. As they said, men's value is judged on their current success. Not trying makes you just as valueless as trying and failing, it is the exact same outcome.
        dozzie 10y ago
        > No, that's not how it works [...] Are you sure the people's feelings align with how your rational thinking goes?
        MustardTiger 10y ago
        I am sure that assuming their behavior does not follow the obvious explanation because you simply dislike the obvious explanation is silly.
  - ryhamz 10y ago
    Failure being scary is exactly why I hustle so hard though. I don't deliver? People will stop caring about me within a year. Let's not confuse scary with bad. e.g. Paris Hilton is not scared of being homeless.
  - Klockan 10y ago
    At least I am more scared of not having a job to go to tomorrow than the job interview today.
- LnxPrgr3 10y ago
  Depends: does the first option shrug off failures and keep at it, or become suicidally depressed and die?
nostrademons 10y ago
It's likely that it does make men more likely to give up after a failure than less - male labor force participation rates are at a historic low, and there are plenty of underemployed men who were shut out of a high-paying job. But these men drop out of the sample set, and so they aren't talked about when discussing industries with diversity problems. Paul Graham once wrote [1] 'As a kid there's a magic button you can press by saying "I'm just a kid" that will get you out of most difficult situations. Whereas adults, by definition, are not allowed to flake. They still do, of course, but when they do they're ruthlessly pruned', which to my college mind seemed incredibly draconian, but that is largely the way the world works. I think a better sense of intrinsic worth and the knowledge that our accomplishments are what we do and not who we are would benefit both sexes. [1] http://paulgraham.com/notnot.html http://paulgraham.com/notnot.html
golemotron 10y ago
No one likes to go here but in addition to the cultural reinforcements, young men have 17x serum testosterone compared to women of the same age [1]. Avg. Adult Male 270-1,070 Avg. Adult Female 15-70 Hormones affect behavior and in this case competitiveness. [1] http://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testosterone-levels-by-age#Adolescence3 http://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testostero...
- sargun 10y ago
  Time for performance enhancing drugs for interviews?
- morgante 10y ago
  That definitely plays into it. A certain amount of aggressiveness is crucial in career success (for example, men are much more willing to apply for jobs where they don't meet all the stated requirements).
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
facepalm 10y ago
But what else are the men going to do? Women can opt out - men can't.
pluma 10y ago
Sure, but "giving up" is frowned upon even more than failing. Nobody wants to be a "quitter".

taneq 10y ago

Subtle(ish) distinction: You aren't your past accomplishments, you are your capability to generate future accomplishments. Who is more likely to persevere; someone who believes they have to keep achieving things or they are worthless, or someone to whom achievements are a nice bonus to the intrinsic value that they already have?

morgante 10y ago
I'm pretty sure the psychological research would say the latter. Failure is a lot less scary when your ego isn't tied up in it.
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  That makes absolutely no sense. By definition, giving up is failure. So the options are "100% chance of failure" vs "less than 100% chance of failure", and you think they are more likely to pick "100% chance of failure" because failure is scary?
  - morgante 10y ago
    Obviously it doesn't make sense rationally (you miss 100% of the shots you don't take and all that), but it's emotionally very powerful. It's much easier to emotionally justify giving up (I'm not really interested in switching jobs/getting in to tech/etc.) than it is to face the prospect of being rejected many times. Humans are not rational agents.
    - MustardTiger 10y ago
      You are describing the wrong group of people. The "emotionally justify giving up" you describe is precisely what we observe with the group of people who are not considered failures for doing so: women. For men, that is failure. That is not easy to justify emotionally, it is the very thing they are trying to avoid in the first place. The emotional toll of giving up is the same as the emotional toll of trying and failing: you are a loser and not a real man, you have no worth or value. This is why they try again, because it gives them another chance to succeed, and demonstrate their value and worth.
      - morgante 10y ago
        Do you have any evidence to back up that opinion, or is it just your theories on what human nature? If we want to trade opinions and anecdotes, I personally know plenty of "real men" who have justified giving up on different goals to avoid the pain of continued failure. Heck, I'll admit to having done it myself: many years ago I thought I might want to work in finance but after applying to a few banks and never hearing back I "decided" that it's not really for me when in reality I was just avoiding the pain of further rejection. I realize this sounds confrontational, but I really do want to know where you're coming from that men don't give up on things due to fear of failure. In my personal and professional lives, I see it all the time.
        MustardTiger 10y ago
        >Do you have any evidence to back up that opinion The very article we're discussing? Remember, it shows 7 times as many women give up as men do. A generalization is not contradicted by one example to the contrary, it would need a majority of examples to the contrary. Obviously some men do give up. But only 1/7th as many as with women. I am simply supporting the explanation someone else offered: that this is because women have inherent value and men's value is purely based on their current level of success. So men have an additional strong incentive to not give up. And when they do give up, it is often just to pursue another avenue where they feel success is more likely, rather than just giving up altogether.
        10y ago
  - dozzie 10y ago
    You miss an important aspect. You won't succeed in 100% cases you don't take an action, but you also don't fail due to your lack of skills in 100% cases you don't take an action. You can't be blamed for failing if you didn't even try. You can only be blamed for not succeeding.
    - MustardTiger 10y ago
      No, that's not how it works, which is the point. As they said, men's value is judged on their current success. Not trying makes you just as valueless as trying and failing, it is the exact same outcome.
      - dozzie 10y ago
        > No, that's not how it works [...] Are you sure the people's feelings align with how your rational thinking goes?
        MustardTiger 10y ago
        I am sure that assuming their behavior does not follow the obvious explanation because you simply dislike the obvious explanation is silly.
- ryhamz 10y ago
  Failure being scary is exactly why I hustle so hard though. I don't deliver? People will stop caring about me within a year. Let's not confuse scary with bad. e.g. Paris Hilton is not scared of being homeless.
- Klockan 10y ago
  At least I am more scared of not having a job to go to tomorrow than the job interview today.
LnxPrgr3 10y ago
Depends: does the first option shrug off failures and keep at it, or become suicidally depressed and die?

nostrademons 10y ago

It's likely that it does make men more likely to give up after a failure than less - male labor force participation rates are at a historic low, and there are plenty of underemployed men who were shut out of a high-paying job. But these men drop out of the sample set, and so they aren't talked about when discussing industries with diversity problems. Paul Graham once wrote [1] 'As a kid there's a magic button you can press by saying "I'm just a kid" that will get you out of most difficult situations. Whereas adults, by definition, are not allowed to flake. They still do, of course, but when they do they're ruthlessly pruned', which to my college mind seemed incredibly draconian, but that is largely the way the world works. I think a better sense of intrinsic worth and the knowledge that our accomplishments are what we do and not who we are would benefit both sexes. [1] http://paulgraham.com/notnot.html http://paulgraham.com/notnot.html

golemotron 10y ago

No one likes to go here but in addition to the cultural reinforcements, young men have 17x serum testosterone compared to women of the same age [1]. Avg. Adult Male 270-1,070 Avg. Adult Female 15-70 Hormones affect behavior and in this case competitiveness. [1] http://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testosterone-levels-by-age#Adolescence3 http://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testostero...

sargun 10y ago
Time for performance enhancing drugs for interviews?
morgante 10y ago
That definitely plays into it. A certain amount of aggressiveness is crucial in career success (for example, men are much more willing to apply for jobs where they don't meet all the stated requirements).
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

facepalm 10y ago

But what else are the men going to do? Women can opt out - men can't.

pluma 10y ago

Sure, but "giving up" is frowned upon even more than failing. Nobody wants to be a "quitter".