6 ms·

If certain activities have a huge effect on how the world operates, which is kind of the premise of Y Combinator (software is eating the world, etc.) then it's

by theoh 10y ago

If certain activities have a huge effect on how the world operates, which is kind of the premise of Y Combinator (software is eating the world, etc.) then it's important that the people who call the shots are representative of the people who are affected. This has to happen from the bottom up, since for obvious reasons you can't parachute in "untrained diversity" at a management/strategy level.

xorgar831 10y ago
Exactly this, if you don't have that level of representation it leads to social problems down the line. The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. Democracy only works as much as it can provide an outlet for friction from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system.
- xorgar831 10y ago
  To add to my own comment even, that's why we have the Electoral College vs. a simple majority, it further allows smaller groups to have some say.
- finid 10y ago
  The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. That leaves me scratching my head. I know that Iraq is a mess, but how is that because of diversity, or lack of it? And about Iran. There's bloodshed there?
  - diyorgasms 10y ago
    I'm suspecting parent is referring to the Iran-Iraq War, though I may be mistaken.
    - finid 10y ago
      But that war had nothing to do with diversity. It was, in a sense, one of our proxy wars, when Saddam was our bastard.
  - johncolanduoni 10y ago
    The link I can see is when some religious/ethnic group has disproportionate representation in government.
- return0 10y ago
  > from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system i thought it afforded them a proportionate share
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- golemotron 10y ago
  The representation you should be worried about is ideological representation. That's where true diversity -diversity of thought and worldview- resides. The vilification of Peter Thiel solely for supporting a candidate that 40+ percent of the country supports should open some eyes to the problem but I doubt it will.
mzw_mzw 10y ago
I would hope we're not parachuting in "untrained diversity" at the lower levels, either. Everyone should be held to the same standards.
dethswatch 10y ago
I'm not certain I see how C++ and SQL would be all that different if designed by women. Nor, for that matter, browsers, or perhaps word processors.
- acdha 10y ago
  What about e.g. social apps where some communities face a much higher risk of receiving abuse? Looking more broadly, it wasn't that long ago that you could easily find American software developers treating internationalisation as a frill or people talking about accessibility as a niche concern. (Now a growing percentage of people recognize that in addition to being the right thing to do, it also benefits more people than they thought due to temporary limits due to environment - ever see how many people use subtitles on the subway/bus?, illness/injury, distraction, etc.) The key point for me is seeing this as a larger goal of encouraging as many people as possible to participate in building the technology right increasingly shapes our world. One key thing is that people aren't limited to certain types of contribution: there's probably no uniquely feminine contribution to C++ but how well the standards community works or how the language is designed will charge based on who's involved. If it's mostly very smart MIT grads, someone else might contribute not because of their race, gender, etc. but because their life experience has been different, and that's usually important for moving something out of the core guru community into broader usage. Remember all of the guys who decried GUIs as unnecessary crutches when Real Men(tm) used a CLI? The problem wasn't that they were (generally) white men but simply that they had a very narrow view of what people wanted to do and how much training was reasonable to accept just to be able to check your email or edit a file. That's laughable now but it wasn't hard to find examples just a generation back.
  - weberc2 10y ago
    > Looking more broadly, it wasn't that long ago that you could easily find American software developers treating internationalisation as a frill or people talking about accessibility as a niche concern. (Now a growing percentage of people recognize that in addition to being the right thing to do, it also benefits more people than they thought due to temporary limits due to environment - ever see how many people use subtitles on the subway/bus?, illness/injury, distraction, etc.) Is there any evidence that better support for internationalization and accessibility was driven by a more diverse workforce? It seems more likely that these were driven by market forces (increased demand as well as lower costs as i8n/accessibility tools/practices evolved). > how well the standards community works or how the language is designed will charge based on who's involved. There's even some evidence that some diversity helps groups make better decisions, but there's no reason to believe that the effect is large nor that the optimal diversity is above the current level. In other words, there's no reason to believe that more diversity will be beneficial.
ManlyBread 10y ago
>it's important that the people who call the shots are representative of the people who are affected Sounds like racial segregation.

by theoh 10y ago

xorgar831 10y ago

Exactly this, if you don't have that level of representation it leads to social problems down the line. The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. Democracy only works as much as it can provide an outlet for friction from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system.

xorgar831 10y ago
To add to my own comment even, that's why we have the Electoral College vs. a simple majority, it further allows smaller groups to have some say.
finid 10y ago
The bloodshed in Iran and Iraq are shining examples of the extremes of what can happen. That leaves me scratching my head. I know that Iraq is a mess, but how is that because of diversity, or lack of it? And about Iran. There's bloodshed there?
- diyorgasms 10y ago
  I'm suspecting parent is referring to the Iran-Iraq War, though I may be mistaken.
  - finid 10y ago
    But that war had nothing to do with diversity. It was, in a sense, one of our proxy wars, when Saddam was our bastard.
- johncolanduoni 10y ago
  The link I can see is when some religious/ethnic group has disproportionate representation in government.
return0 10y ago
> from different groups by allowing them an equal share of the system i thought it afforded them a proportionate share
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
golemotron 10y ago
The representation you should be worried about is ideological representation. That's where true diversity -diversity of thought and worldview- resides. The vilification of Peter Thiel solely for supporting a candidate that 40+ percent of the country supports should open some eyes to the problem but I doubt it will.

mzw_mzw 10y ago

I would hope we're not parachuting in "untrained diversity" at the lower levels, either. Everyone should be held to the same standards.

dethswatch 10y ago

I'm not certain I see how C++ and SQL would be all that different if designed by women. Nor, for that matter, browsers, or perhaps word processors.

acdha 10y ago
What about e.g. social apps where some communities face a much higher risk of receiving abuse? Looking more broadly, it wasn't that long ago that you could easily find American software developers treating internationalisation as a frill or people talking about accessibility as a niche concern. (Now a growing percentage of people recognize that in addition to being the right thing to do, it also benefits more people than they thought due to temporary limits due to environment - ever see how many people use subtitles on the subway/bus?, illness/injury, distraction, etc.) The key point for me is seeing this as a larger goal of encouraging as many people as possible to participate in building the technology right increasingly shapes our world. One key thing is that people aren't limited to certain types of contribution: there's probably no uniquely feminine contribution to C++ but how well the standards community works or how the language is designed will charge based on who's involved. If it's mostly very smart MIT grads, someone else might contribute not because of their race, gender, etc. but because their life experience has been different, and that's usually important for moving something out of the core guru community into broader usage. Remember all of the guys who decried GUIs as unnecessary crutches when Real Men(tm) used a CLI? The problem wasn't that they were (generally) white men but simply that they had a very narrow view of what people wanted to do and how much training was reasonable to accept just to be able to check your email or edit a file. That's laughable now but it wasn't hard to find examples just a generation back.
- weberc2 10y ago
  > Looking more broadly, it wasn't that long ago that you could easily find American software developers treating internationalisation as a frill or people talking about accessibility as a niche concern. (Now a growing percentage of people recognize that in addition to being the right thing to do, it also benefits more people than they thought due to temporary limits due to environment - ever see how many people use subtitles on the subway/bus?, illness/injury, distraction, etc.) Is there any evidence that better support for internationalization and accessibility was driven by a more diverse workforce? It seems more likely that these were driven by market forces (increased demand as well as lower costs as i8n/accessibility tools/practices evolved). > how well the standards community works or how the language is designed will charge based on who's involved. There's even some evidence that some diversity helps groups make better decisions, but there's no reason to believe that the effect is large nor that the optimal diversity is above the current level. In other words, there's no reason to believe that more diversity will be beneficial.

ManlyBread 10y ago

>it's important that the people who call the shots are representative of the people who are affected Sounds like racial segregation.