4 ms·

Maybe the larger the body of employees, this becomes more and more the case. But if you're hiring your second engineer on the team? Hire the absolute most prod

by aantix 10y ago

Maybe the larger the body of employees, this becomes more and more the case. But if you're hiring your second engineer on the team? Hire the absolute most productive engineer. Even if that turns out to be a white male. And don't feel guilty.

mark-ruwt 10y ago
Sadly, this is the crux of the problem. If you equate increasing diversity with lowering the bar, you're missing the point. https://42hire.com/the-big-lie-tech-companies-and-diversity-hiring-f52fb82abfbf https://42hire.com/the-big-lie-tech-companies-and-diversity-...
ubernostrum 10y ago
Your statement to "hire the absolute most productive" implies that no woman or black or hispanic person can be "the absolute most productive", because there is no reading of your comment which makes sense without the assumption that you believe this. Congratulations, you've exposed yourself as possessing irrational biases and allowing them to influence how you'd hire, while showing no desire to eliminate, overcome or compensate for those biases. As a result you are unqualified to ever make a hiring decision.
- flukus 10y ago
  > Your statement to "hire the absolute most productive" implies that no woman or black or hispanic person can be "the absolute most productive" How on earth did it imply that?
  - ubernostrum 10y ago
    In the context of "diversity", which is taken to imply increasing the population of currently-underrepresented groups in the industry, responding with "just hire the best" only makes sense if one believes those groups do not by definition contain "the best", since otherwise everyone who already claims to "hire the best" would have hired from those groups.
    - flukus 10y ago
      It's in the context of hiring though, "the best" means "the best available".
      - ubernostrum 10y ago
        No, it means "the best we're willing to hire". I work in an office full of people who kick ass but wouldn't make it past the phone screen at most "hire the best" places. Their loss is our gain.
    - aantix 10y ago
      Money in Silicon Valley knows no prejudice. One of the companies that I consulted for offered 10K placement bonuses if you could recommend an engineer that stayed for just three months. This idea that there's a group of hidden engineers just waiting to discovered and included, that they just haven't been shown a company that cares, that somehow if we just went to the right unrepresented areas or schools or groups they would be there they'd be waiting to add millions to the bottom line... Just isn't true. If you're not showing off your skills, putting yourself out there with code, meetups, conferences, then no, you're not one of the best. Engineers can self-delude themselves all day in their cubicle with how clever their code is, but if you're not sharing it with the world then you're not doing enough to be included in the best.
      - pj_mukh 10y ago
        "Money in Silicon Valley knows no prejudice." Most of the money is very dumb and extremely prejudiced. Listening to women talk about fundraising is horrifying.
- AvenueIngres 10y ago
  >Your statement to "hire the absolute most productive" implies that no woman or black or hispanic person can be "the absolute most productive" No >Congratulations, you've exposed yourself as possessing irrational biases That's rich coming from someone who just made a completely biased reading of the parent comment to fuel their narrative.
  - ubernostrum 10y ago
    So provide me with an interpretation of "just hire the best" -- as a response to critiques of the lack of diversity in tech -- which does not imply or require an assumption that currently-underrepresented groups are, by the nature of the people in those groups, less qualified and thus less likely to be "the best". Because you can't provide that. "Just hire the best" is an excuse for biased interviewing and hiring processes which self-reinforce; you claim to "hire the best" and then actually hire based on your biases and claim those are "the best". It turns out not to work: http://danluu.com/programmer-moneyball/ http://danluu.com/programmer-moneyball/ http://danluu.com/tech-discrimination/ http://danluu.com/tech-discrimination/
    - palunon 10y ago
      There are less of them in tech, so if you hire the best, you've got more chances to hire a white male. It's a numbers game really.
      - ubernostrum 10y ago
        The point is to question why that is -- other fields have stubbornly insisted they were purely merit-based, that women and various other minorities simply were predisposed not to like or be good at what the field was about, etc. etc. And pretty much every time that's been shown wrong.

by aantix 10y ago

mark-ruwt 10y ago

Sadly, this is the crux of the problem. If you equate increasing diversity with lowering the bar, you're missing the point. https://42hire.com/the-big-lie-tech-companies-and-diversity-hiring-f52fb82abfbf https://42hire.com/the-big-lie-tech-companies-and-diversity-...

ubernostrum 10y ago

Your statement to "hire the absolute most productive" implies that no woman or black or hispanic person can be "the absolute most productive", because there is no reading of your comment which makes sense without the assumption that you believe this. Congratulations, you've exposed yourself as possessing irrational biases and allowing them to influence how you'd hire, while showing no desire to eliminate, overcome or compensate for those biases. As a result you are unqualified to ever make a hiring decision.

flukus 10y ago
> Your statement to "hire the absolute most productive" implies that no woman or black or hispanic person can be "the absolute most productive" How on earth did it imply that?
- ubernostrum 10y ago
  In the context of "diversity", which is taken to imply increasing the population of currently-underrepresented groups in the industry, responding with "just hire the best" only makes sense if one believes those groups do not by definition contain "the best", since otherwise everyone who already claims to "hire the best" would have hired from those groups.
  - flukus 10y ago
    It's in the context of hiring though, "the best" means "the best available".
    - ubernostrum 10y ago
      No, it means "the best we're willing to hire". I work in an office full of people who kick ass but wouldn't make it past the phone screen at most "hire the best" places. Their loss is our gain.
  - aantix 10y ago
    Money in Silicon Valley knows no prejudice. One of the companies that I consulted for offered 10K placement bonuses if you could recommend an engineer that stayed for just three months. This idea that there's a group of hidden engineers just waiting to discovered and included, that they just haven't been shown a company that cares, that somehow if we just went to the right unrepresented areas or schools or groups they would be there they'd be waiting to add millions to the bottom line... Just isn't true. If you're not showing off your skills, putting yourself out there with code, meetups, conferences, then no, you're not one of the best. Engineers can self-delude themselves all day in their cubicle with how clever their code is, but if you're not sharing it with the world then you're not doing enough to be included in the best.
    - pj_mukh 10y ago
      "Money in Silicon Valley knows no prejudice." Most of the money is very dumb and extremely prejudiced. Listening to women talk about fundraising is horrifying.
AvenueIngres 10y ago
>Your statement to "hire the absolute most productive" implies that no woman or black or hispanic person can be "the absolute most productive" No >Congratulations, you've exposed yourself as possessing irrational biases That's rich coming from someone who just made a completely biased reading of the parent comment to fuel their narrative.
- ubernostrum 10y ago
  So provide me with an interpretation of "just hire the best" -- as a response to critiques of the lack of diversity in tech -- which does not imply or require an assumption that currently-underrepresented groups are, by the nature of the people in those groups, less qualified and thus less likely to be "the best". Because you can't provide that. "Just hire the best" is an excuse for biased interviewing and hiring processes which self-reinforce; you claim to "hire the best" and then actually hire based on your biases and claim those are "the best". It turns out not to work: http://danluu.com/programmer-moneyball/ http://danluu.com/programmer-moneyball/ http://danluu.com/tech-discrimination/ http://danluu.com/tech-discrimination/
  - palunon 10y ago
    There are less of them in tech, so if you hire the best, you've got more chances to hire a white male. It's a numbers game really.
    - ubernostrum 10y ago
      The point is to question why that is -- other fields have stubbornly insisted they were purely merit-based, that women and various other minorities simply were predisposed not to like or be good at what the field was about, etc. etc. And pretty much every time that's been shown wrong.