5 ms·

Well, it works both ways. You might send out 20 resumes. As a hiring manager - especially when using a "no filter" approach like posting on here (keep in mind

by TheMog 10y ago

Well, it works both ways. You might send out 20 resumes. As a hiring manager - especially when using a "no filter" approach like posting on here (keep in mind that IME people posting jobs on Hacker News are more likely doing "guerilla hiring" and circumvent their HR departments) - I easily get 100+ resumes, and I don't have days to spend trawling through them. I think it was rands of randsinrepose who mentioned before that the average time an HR person or a manager gets to spend on figuring out if a deeper dive is worth it is about 30s. So I have to filter them by something. If you as an applicant - who would like at least an interview with me -can't even put in the effort to write in a few sentences that tell me why I should look at your resume, I somehow have to assume that you'll put in similar effort after I hire you. That's not a good first impression and IMHO it counts when you're dealing with a hiring manager as opposed to an HR department. Keep in mind I'm not asking you to write a cover novel. Put yourself in my shoes and tell me which of the resumes you'd look at if you have only limited time: 1. The one that says "My resume attached", or fewer words to that effect 2. The one that says "Hey, I'm applying for your job opening because I love writing web apps in Ruby on Rails with a ClojureScript front end".

Kalium 10y ago
It's possible that how much effort a candidate puts into demonstrating token emotional attachment to a job posting is not a great predictor of job performance.
- Grae 10y ago
  Correct. It's also possible that, as a candidate, demonstrating token emotional attachment to a job posting positively correlates with advancing through the candidate funnel. Your strategy is yours to choose.
  - Kalium 10y ago
    If that is how a given company filters for candidates, then I have desire to advance through their funnel. This seems like a reasonable deal to me.
    - adrianpike 10y ago
      Funnels can filter both ways. :)
      - deleted 10y ago
        [deleted]
      - moron4hire 10y ago
        Filtering is not even the job that funnels do.
  - Retric 10y ago
    Most of the best people I know have very little interest in getting another job. So, I suspect funnels tend to remove the top and bottom. PS: I had someone insist on the opposite process where they only looked at people who HR rejected, their team was awesome if a little odd.
    - PakG1 10y ago
      That company likely has culture issues then? I've never even heard of anything like that before. I've heard people say that their HR doesn't understand them or what they do, but this is taking it to another level.
      - Retric 10y ago
        His theory was this. He like everyone else wants the top 5%. Some of those people graduated from standford and have a clean job history. Those people don't spend much time looking for work. While smaller in number, great people with odd backgrounds are likely to spend longer looking for work. So, if you actually want the best look for them in the rejection pile. Clearly this is not going to scale, but it really depends more on other companies being defective not a poor culture at your company. PS: I am more of the opinion that focusing on great people is a mistake. Most competent people can be great, when in a role and team that fits them.
        Vanit 10y ago
        Hah, this sounds like the Moneyball of hiring.
- JetSpiegel 10y ago
  That what the interview is for. This is just a pre filter.
- imron 10y ago
  You don't need to demonstrate emotional attachment. You do need to demonstrate that you can solve the problems of the potential employer. People advertising for a job have a business problem to solve. If you can demonstrate that not only can you solve that problem but that you have solved similar problems for other businesses before, then you stand a greater chance of making it through to an interview.
  - Kalium 10y ago
    You're right! Cover letters are all about demonstrating value. Cover letters are great for copywriters, marketers, and others whose primary output is prose for humans. In such cases, cover letters demonstrate competence for the job at hand. However, software engineering is not such a job. A cover letter showcasing a software engineer's ability to author vaguely reality-flavored prose and get past the HR drone doing the reading is not showcasing their ability to perform critical job functions to address business needs. Such an engineer is spending significant amounts of their time to tick a prediction-value-free box on someone else's ill-informed list. I've literally never had a good experience with a company that wanted a cover letter. I've done it dozens of times. In every single case, with precisely zero exceptions, it's produced no value for me. I've been on the other end of hiring processes as well, and there I've similarly found precisely zero value in cover letters across dozens of cases. Fact-dense and fluff-light resumes are much more valuable. Code samples? Great! Toy problems? Great! Prose? Not so great. Do you need help solving the problem you appear to have where you may be misevaluating candidates by measuring them wrong? I have some ideas! It could be costing you the best candidates!
    - imron 10y ago
      Cover letters don't need to be paragraph after paragraph of prose, and they don't always go to HR drones either, see for example, the context of this thread because many of the who's hiring posts bypass HR drone screening. > I've literally never had a good experience with a company that wanted a cover letter. To provide a counter point, for a recent contracting job, I got an interview with a cover letter only (no resume), and then the position. I had responded to a 'we're hiring' link at the end of a technical blog post (linked to from HN). I wrote a brief email introducing myself and talking about the value I thought could bring to the company (with links to examples of prior, related work), and that led to follow up emails and an interview. I don't think it would have gone any further if I had just sent an email saying 'Please find my resume attached' and then sent a generic resume.
freework 10y ago
> I easily get 100+ resumes, and I don't have days to spend trawling through them It is your job to look through resume's. This is what you are paid to do. You claim to be a hiring manager. It is not my responsibility to convince you to do the job you are paid to do. My resume contains all the information you need to make the determination of whether I am qualified for the job, including "I love writing web apps in Ruby on Rails with a ClojureScript front end" adds nothing to the application but does waste my time.
- lostcolony 10y ago
  Actually, no. A hiring manager is "a manager who is hiring". I.e., not an HR manager, but the person who put in the request to hire someone. Generally their job actually entails delivering a product or service or similar. -Part- of that is filling the team. But that is not what they are measured on. At the end of the day, what they will be evaluated on is delivery, not hiring. As such, it is up to them how much time they spend hiring, and it is up to them what heuristics they use in that. Because, ultimately, time spent on hiring is time they're not spending actually helping the other team members who they have already hired, and it is only indirectly related to actually delivering the thing they are supposed to deliver (whereas they may have demands on their time that -directly- affect the delivery). It is also up to you whether or not you try to help them by showing you have actually read the posting, and know something about the company, and whatever other heuristic they have. That's totally your prerogative. But you do not have -any- standing to fault someone whose job is delivering something with not considering you because you didn't want to put in some effort.
- reader5000 10y ago
  Write one cover letter and copy paste. I can totally understand prose selling better than a listing of "past things done".
  - freework 10y ago
    Is it really "prose" if it's written in such a way that it can be copied over and over again?
clarry 10y ago
What if I don't love writing web apps in RoR and just want a friggin job? I shouldn't send you a resume at all? Would it be appropriate for me to just lie about it? What if the all the people who tell how they love writing web apps in RoR are just bullshitting you in the hopes that you really believe it? What if they're mostly just very excited newbies who haven't yet had the time to figure out that maybe it's not so exciting and lovely after all? I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, but it sounds like you choose very arbitrary filters. Not that I can recommend a better filter, if your time is indeed so limited.
- TheMog 10y ago
  Depends if you're a world class bullshitter or not :). You've pretty much hit the nail on the head about the filters - they have some arbitrariness to them, and most people outside (and, if my experience is anything to go by, inside) HR use filters that work for them based on experience in the past. I'm not saying they are fair and unbiased (they aren't), but they work for that particular person. I for example would perfectly OK with you emailing me (if I were hiring, which I'm not) a cover email that says something like "I have the skills you're looking for, I like the area your company is in, and I'm looking for a job that allows me to bring my dog to work and have a work/life balance". That's again specific to the hiring manager tho', I'd take refreshing honesty over someone trying to visibly BS me any day. What a lot of people don't immediately see is that if a company is hiring, they're not looking to hire your resume - they're hiring a person (which a specific skill set) that they're going to spend 8-10h/day with. A cover email can convey more about you personally than a list of past accomplishments.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- estreeper 10y ago
  > What if I don't love writing web apps in RoR and just want a friggin job? I shouldn't send you a resume at all? Probably not. If someone is doing something they don't like, they tend to stop doing it so well as time goes on. While it may work out for a while, people usually need to care at some level about what they're doing to do a good job. Not everyone, sure, but I wouldn't take the chance. There is also a lot more to working than just doing a job. Working around people who don't care about their work is demoralizing.
nitwit005 10y ago
Do you have any data to suggest your approach works better than random selection? A lot of hiring managers seem to admit to not bothering to read cover letters. I diligently entered cover letter and resume information into a spreadsheet when hiring, and to be perfectly honest, the only correlation I could find between cover letter + resume and interview results was resume length.
- TheMog 10y ago
  Data, as in carefully curated and collected? No, I don't. I admire your approach but I've never taken it this far. What I have is interviewing lots and lots of people over a couple of decades, first contributing to hiring decisions and eventually making them myself. As developers you see patterns emerge and you start making use of them. For a halfway efficient review process you have to make a first pass over the resume submissions and whittle the pile down to a manageable size quickly, making use of patterns spotted in the past. In that respect, my experience tells me that "no cover email at all" = "shotgunned resume to every job listing" = "not a good fit". That might not always be the case, but it's an 80/20 rule. Yes, I'll potentially overlook a couple of qualified candidates, but I'm probably already doing this after work instead of spending time with my family because I've decided to essentially circumvent the HR department. Part of the cover letter conundrum is that if you come in through the front door (ie, the official job listing curated by HR), your resume is likely landing in some HR system and the hiring manager might not even see it. In that case, it's a total waste of effort. If you're coming in through the "back door", say, via a post here on Hacker News, there is a good chance that your first contact is the actual hiring manager. She or he will probably at least skim your cover email.
maxaf 10y ago
You get 100+ resumes through a "Who's Hiring?" post?! I get two-three in a good month, but more often than not I get nothing at all. That said, I have hired one person through HN back in 2011, if memory serves me right, so this hasn't been all for naught.
- cloverich 10y ago
  Do you have a link to a recent job posting? If so I'm sure you can get some feedback on why that is.
  - maxaf 10y ago
    Here it is! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12847191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12847191
    - user5994461 10y ago
      You don't say what you are looking for in the post. There is a mention of "platform engineer" but no clue what this is or what he's supposed to do. Plus, I assume that the NY area + security engineering has a lot of companies competing.
- WWLink 10y ago
  Oh, ouch! That sucks. Your product is pretty darn cool. I remember cross-comparing it and some other stuff. Only reason I didn't buy it, was the lack of a desktop webapp. (That's a serious problem IMHO.) If I were interested in moving I'd totally apply there.
vic-traill 10y ago
Honestly I'd go for number one, if I had to pick one. Number two strikes me as trite enough to earn negative points, particularly the use of 'love'.

by TheMog 10y ago

Kalium 10y ago

It's possible that how much effort a candidate puts into demonstrating token emotional attachment to a job posting is not a great predictor of job performance.

Grae 10y ago
Correct. It's also possible that, as a candidate, demonstrating token emotional attachment to a job posting positively correlates with advancing through the candidate funnel. Your strategy is yours to choose.
- Kalium 10y ago
  If that is how a given company filters for candidates, then I have desire to advance through their funnel. This seems like a reasonable deal to me.
  - adrianpike 10y ago
    Funnels can filter both ways. :)
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - moron4hire 10y ago
      Filtering is not even the job that funnels do.
- Retric 10y ago
  Most of the best people I know have very little interest in getting another job. So, I suspect funnels tend to remove the top and bottom. PS: I had someone insist on the opposite process where they only looked at people who HR rejected, their team was awesome if a little odd.
  - PakG1 10y ago
    That company likely has culture issues then? I've never even heard of anything like that before. I've heard people say that their HR doesn't understand them or what they do, but this is taking it to another level.
    - Retric 10y ago
      His theory was this. He like everyone else wants the top 5%. Some of those people graduated from standford and have a clean job history. Those people don't spend much time looking for work. While smaller in number, great people with odd backgrounds are likely to spend longer looking for work. So, if you actually want the best look for them in the rejection pile. Clearly this is not going to scale, but it really depends more on other companies being defective not a poor culture at your company. PS: I am more of the opinion that focusing on great people is a mistake. Most competent people can be great, when in a role and team that fits them.
      - Vanit 10y ago
        Hah, this sounds like the Moneyball of hiring.
JetSpiegel 10y ago
That what the interview is for. This is just a pre filter.
imron 10y ago
You don't need to demonstrate emotional attachment. You do need to demonstrate that you can solve the problems of the potential employer. People advertising for a job have a business problem to solve. If you can demonstrate that not only can you solve that problem but that you have solved similar problems for other businesses before, then you stand a greater chance of making it through to an interview.
- Kalium 10y ago
  You're right! Cover letters are all about demonstrating value. Cover letters are great for copywriters, marketers, and others whose primary output is prose for humans. In such cases, cover letters demonstrate competence for the job at hand. However, software engineering is not such a job. A cover letter showcasing a software engineer's ability to author vaguely reality-flavored prose and get past the HR drone doing the reading is not showcasing their ability to perform critical job functions to address business needs. Such an engineer is spending significant amounts of their time to tick a prediction-value-free box on someone else's ill-informed list. I've literally never had a good experience with a company that wanted a cover letter. I've done it dozens of times. In every single case, with precisely zero exceptions, it's produced no value for me. I've been on the other end of hiring processes as well, and there I've similarly found precisely zero value in cover letters across dozens of cases. Fact-dense and fluff-light resumes are much more valuable. Code samples? Great! Toy problems? Great! Prose? Not so great. Do you need help solving the problem you appear to have where you may be misevaluating candidates by measuring them wrong? I have some ideas! It could be costing you the best candidates!
  - imron 10y ago
    Cover letters don't need to be paragraph after paragraph of prose, and they don't always go to HR drones either, see for example, the context of this thread because many of the who's hiring posts bypass HR drone screening. > I've literally never had a good experience with a company that wanted a cover letter. To provide a counter point, for a recent contracting job, I got an interview with a cover letter only (no resume), and then the position. I had responded to a 'we're hiring' link at the end of a technical blog post (linked to from HN). I wrote a brief email introducing myself and talking about the value I thought could bring to the company (with links to examples of prior, related work), and that led to follow up emails and an interview. I don't think it would have gone any further if I had just sent an email saying 'Please find my resume attached' and then sent a generic resume.

freework 10y ago

> I easily get 100+ resumes, and I don't have days to spend trawling through them It is your job to look through resume's. This is what you are paid to do. You claim to be a hiring manager. It is not my responsibility to convince you to do the job you are paid to do. My resume contains all the information you need to make the determination of whether I am qualified for the job, including "I love writing web apps in Ruby on Rails with a ClojureScript front end" adds nothing to the application but does waste my time.

lostcolony 10y ago
Actually, no. A hiring manager is "a manager who is hiring". I.e., not an HR manager, but the person who put in the request to hire someone. Generally their job actually entails delivering a product or service or similar. -Part- of that is filling the team. But that is not what they are measured on. At the end of the day, what they will be evaluated on is delivery, not hiring. As such, it is up to them how much time they spend hiring, and it is up to them what heuristics they use in that. Because, ultimately, time spent on hiring is time they're not spending actually helping the other team members who they have already hired, and it is only indirectly related to actually delivering the thing they are supposed to deliver (whereas they may have demands on their time that -directly- affect the delivery). It is also up to you whether or not you try to help them by showing you have actually read the posting, and know something about the company, and whatever other heuristic they have. That's totally your prerogative. But you do not have -any- standing to fault someone whose job is delivering something with not considering you because you didn't want to put in some effort.
reader5000 10y ago
Write one cover letter and copy paste. I can totally understand prose selling better than a listing of "past things done".
- freework 10y ago
  Is it really "prose" if it's written in such a way that it can be copied over and over again?

clarry 10y ago

What if I don't love writing web apps in RoR and just want a friggin job? I shouldn't send you a resume at all? Would it be appropriate for me to just lie about it? What if the all the people who tell how they love writing web apps in RoR are just bullshitting you in the hopes that you really believe it? What if they're mostly just very excited newbies who haven't yet had the time to figure out that maybe it's not so exciting and lovely after all? I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, but it sounds like you choose very arbitrary filters. Not that I can recommend a better filter, if your time is indeed so limited.

TheMog 10y ago
Depends if you're a world class bullshitter or not :). You've pretty much hit the nail on the head about the filters - they have some arbitrariness to them, and most people outside (and, if my experience is anything to go by, inside) HR use filters that work for them based on experience in the past. I'm not saying they are fair and unbiased (they aren't), but they work for that particular person. I for example would perfectly OK with you emailing me (if I were hiring, which I'm not) a cover email that says something like "I have the skills you're looking for, I like the area your company is in, and I'm looking for a job that allows me to bring my dog to work and have a work/life balance". That's again specific to the hiring manager tho', I'd take refreshing honesty over someone trying to visibly BS me any day. What a lot of people don't immediately see is that if a company is hiring, they're not looking to hire your resume - they're hiring a person (which a specific skill set) that they're going to spend 8-10h/day with. A cover email can convey more about you personally than a list of past accomplishments.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
estreeper 10y ago
> What if I don't love writing web apps in RoR and just want a friggin job? I shouldn't send you a resume at all? Probably not. If someone is doing something they don't like, they tend to stop doing it so well as time goes on. While it may work out for a while, people usually need to care at some level about what they're doing to do a good job. Not everyone, sure, but I wouldn't take the chance. There is also a lot more to working than just doing a job. Working around people who don't care about their work is demoralizing.

nitwit005 10y ago

Do you have any data to suggest your approach works better than random selection? A lot of hiring managers seem to admit to not bothering to read cover letters. I diligently entered cover letter and resume information into a spreadsheet when hiring, and to be perfectly honest, the only correlation I could find between cover letter + resume and interview results was resume length.

TheMog 10y ago
Data, as in carefully curated and collected? No, I don't. I admire your approach but I've never taken it this far. What I have is interviewing lots and lots of people over a couple of decades, first contributing to hiring decisions and eventually making them myself. As developers you see patterns emerge and you start making use of them. For a halfway efficient review process you have to make a first pass over the resume submissions and whittle the pile down to a manageable size quickly, making use of patterns spotted in the past. In that respect, my experience tells me that "no cover email at all" = "shotgunned resume to every job listing" = "not a good fit". That might not always be the case, but it's an 80/20 rule. Yes, I'll potentially overlook a couple of qualified candidates, but I'm probably already doing this after work instead of spending time with my family because I've decided to essentially circumvent the HR department. Part of the cover letter conundrum is that if you come in through the front door (ie, the official job listing curated by HR), your resume is likely landing in some HR system and the hiring manager might not even see it. In that case, it's a total waste of effort. If you're coming in through the "back door", say, via a post here on Hacker News, there is a good chance that your first contact is the actual hiring manager. She or he will probably at least skim your cover email.

maxaf 10y ago

You get 100+ resumes through a "Who's Hiring?" post?! I get two-three in a good month, but more often than not I get nothing at all. That said, I have hired one person through HN back in 2011, if memory serves me right, so this hasn't been all for naught.

cloverich 10y ago
Do you have a link to a recent job posting? If so I'm sure you can get some feedback on why that is.
- maxaf 10y ago
  Here it is! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12847191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12847191
  - user5994461 10y ago
    You don't say what you are looking for in the post. There is a mention of "platform engineer" but no clue what this is or what he's supposed to do. Plus, I assume that the NY area + security engineering has a lot of companies competing.
WWLink 10y ago
Oh, ouch! That sucks. Your product is pretty darn cool. I remember cross-comparing it and some other stuff. Only reason I didn't buy it, was the lack of a desktop webapp. (That's a serious problem IMHO.) If I were interested in moving I'd totally apply there.

vic-traill 10y ago

Honestly I'd go for number one, if I had to pick one. Number two strikes me as trite enough to earn negative points, particularly the use of 'love'.