4 ms·

PJB has become a bit (too little for my taste) of a persona non grata in the common lisp world (which has a large overlap with the emacs world) ever since it wa

PJB has become a bit (too little for my taste) of a persona non grata in the common lisp world (which has a large overlap with the emacs world) ever since it was suggested and so far not disproved (names match, nicknames match) that he's the person behind https://twitter.com/ogamita https://twitter.com/ogamita edit: To make it more precise, full names are identical and http://www.informatimago.com/index.html http://www.informatimago.com/index.html links to http://pjb.ogamita.org http://pjb.ogamita.org which uses the same name (ogamita) as that twitter account.

omginternets 10y ago
I dislike holocaust-deniers as much as the next guy, but I find it troubling that one's political opinions should prevent us from considering a person's work in a distinct domain. This is especially true in the present case: I see no evidence that PJB has crossed the Hitler stream with the common lisp stream. People can be smart and respectable in one domain and stupid in another.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  This is especially important to keep in mind because there is no way to shun a person and change their mind on the opinion that led to their shunning. Only engagement does that.
  - anon4711 10y ago
    There are two sides to this and I think they're important to distinguish: If the person in question was wrongfully accused, this could do undeserved damage to him. This would be a misfortune (albeit not a great one given how little activity my comment generated) but I'm currently sufficiently convinced this won't happen that I went ahead and posted the comment. The other matter is rehabilitation. Whether he should be allowed to apologise at some point, say that he made a mistake, and be welcomed back, is something that you cannot decide for everyone. It's up to your personal beliefs, in particular your religion. Everybody needs to determine that for him- or herself, in my opinion.
- anon4711 10y ago
  A person can be smart in one domain and stupid in another, so much is clear (think Grothendieck in maths and politics) But a person cannot be both respectable and disrespectable at the same time, I find, although I'm afraid now we might be disagreeing rather about words than ideas. Respectability, to me, is a compliment to somebody's set of values.
  - omginternets 10y ago
    I agree, but the point was rather about censorship. I find it troubling that we should censor (explicitly or otherwise) someone on accounts of his respectability. I find this especially true when the source of disrespectability stems from an unrelated topic.
- Retra 10y ago
  On the other hand, the influence that people have tends to be blind to how they previously acquired that influence. It's a very common problem in politics: you put power on someone due to their credentials in one area, and they suddenly have power they don't deserve in a completely different domain.
- ricksplat 10y ago
  "Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V7me25aNtI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V7me25aNtI
  - omginternets 10y ago
    That's totally missing the point. We can both condemn the stupid/wrong behavior and celebrate the intellectual achievements. The point is that we shouldn't hold back our praise of the latter on account of the former. This is a typical false-dichotomy that plagues contemporary discourse around social justice and various *isms.
    - ricksplat 10y ago
      I don't agree. Many wouldn't.
      - omginternets 10y ago
        Hardly an argument, though. If we abided by your reasoning, the US wouldn't have a space program.
        ricksplat 10y ago
        What's there to argue about? You think you're right and I think you're wrong.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
agumonkey 10y ago
Because his retweeting the hitler glorifying documentary ? Did he talk about holocaust or revisionism online ?
- anon4711 10y ago
  Please scroll further. I understand that some of it is French but you should notice rather quickly nonetheless that this did not just happen on a single occasion. Essentially everything he writes fits into the narrative of #whitegenocide
  - agumonkey 10y ago
    I did dig in his tweets quite a lot, found many retweets of this pro-hitler account, also French extreme right parties, among normal right wing tweets. But all are retweets, no written ones, no debate, no long trolling. I also searched on google for mention of his nicks with hitler | holocaust | denier | ... and found nothing. If he did express disturbing views he did this on non indexed platforms. I am surprised because I spent a lot of times on irc near lisp related (scheme, guile, emacs, so strictly speaking no CL, CLOS, lisp) channels and never heard bad mentions about him. Now I agree that this twitter account seems quite linked and probably pjb, but I can't decide anything based on just that.
    - anon4711 10y ago
      His projects were removed from quicklisp in September (see e.g. http://blog.quicklisp.org/2016/09/september-2016-quicklisp-dist-update.html http://blog.quicklisp.org/2016/09/september-2016-quicklisp-d...) over this matter.
      - agumonkey 10y ago
        That's a bit more telling. Are there any discussions on a mailing list ? or was is on irc and now lost ?
        10y ago
rsaarelm 10y ago
Ah, same guy as the one with probably the most infamous comp.lang.lisp post ever https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/iKNvssI5pE4 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/iKNvs...
AceJohnny2 10y ago
Hm, I wonder if there's something similar to what's happened with Terry A. Davis, author of what's been renamed to TempleOS [1]. He became schizophrenic, and has become less and less coherent over time. He used to have an account here, but either I can't remember it or it's been deleted: most of his posts were of the vile variety. There was an extensive profile of him on Motherboard [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TempleOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TempleOS [2] http://motherboard.vice.com/read/gods-lonely-programmer http://motherboard.vice.com/read/gods-lonely-programmer
- AlexeyBrin 10y ago
  You don't need to have a mental illness to be extreme right like https://twitter.com/ogamita https://twitter.com/ogamita seems to be.
bluefox 10y ago
Thank you for this post. I had technical interaction with him in the past, and read many of his technical posts. But I did not know this. I will no longer interact with him.
kazinator 10y ago
"ogamita" is an obvious palindrome of the "atimago" suffix of "informatimago".

omginternets 10y ago

I dislike holocaust-deniers as much as the next guy, but I find it troubling that one's political opinions should prevent us from considering a person's work in a distinct domain. This is especially true in the present case: I see no evidence that PJB has crossed the Hitler stream with the common lisp stream. People can be smart and respectable in one domain and stupid in another.

oldmanjay 10y ago
This is especially important to keep in mind because there is no way to shun a person and change their mind on the opinion that led to their shunning. Only engagement does that.
- anon4711 10y ago
  There are two sides to this and I think they're important to distinguish: If the person in question was wrongfully accused, this could do undeserved damage to him. This would be a misfortune (albeit not a great one given how little activity my comment generated) but I'm currently sufficiently convinced this won't happen that I went ahead and posted the comment. The other matter is rehabilitation. Whether he should be allowed to apologise at some point, say that he made a mistake, and be welcomed back, is something that you cannot decide for everyone. It's up to your personal beliefs, in particular your religion. Everybody needs to determine that for him- or herself, in my opinion.
anon4711 10y ago
A person can be smart in one domain and stupid in another, so much is clear (think Grothendieck in maths and politics) But a person cannot be both respectable and disrespectable at the same time, I find, although I'm afraid now we might be disagreeing rather about words than ideas. Respectability, to me, is a compliment to somebody's set of values.
- omginternets 10y ago
  I agree, but the point was rather about censorship. I find it troubling that we should censor (explicitly or otherwise) someone on accounts of his respectability. I find this especially true when the source of disrespectability stems from an unrelated topic.
Retra 10y ago
On the other hand, the influence that people have tends to be blind to how they previously acquired that influence. It's a very common problem in politics: you put power on someone due to their credentials in one area, and they suddenly have power they don't deserve in a completely different domain.
ricksplat 10y ago
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V7me25aNtI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V7me25aNtI
- omginternets 10y ago
  That's totally missing the point. We can both condemn the stupid/wrong behavior and celebrate the intellectual achievements. The point is that we shouldn't hold back our praise of the latter on account of the former. This is a typical false-dichotomy that plagues contemporary discourse around social justice and various *isms.
  - ricksplat 10y ago
    I don't agree. Many wouldn't.
    - omginternets 10y ago
      Hardly an argument, though. If we abided by your reasoning, the US wouldn't have a space program.
      - ricksplat 10y ago
        What's there to argue about? You think you're right and I think you're wrong.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

agumonkey 10y ago

Because his retweeting the hitler glorifying documentary ? Did he talk about holocaust or revisionism online ?

anon4711 10y ago
Please scroll further. I understand that some of it is French but you should notice rather quickly nonetheless that this did not just happen on a single occasion. Essentially everything he writes fits into the narrative of #whitegenocide
- agumonkey 10y ago
  I did dig in his tweets quite a lot, found many retweets of this pro-hitler account, also French extreme right parties, among normal right wing tweets. But all are retweets, no written ones, no debate, no long trolling. I also searched on google for mention of his nicks with hitler | holocaust | denier | ... and found nothing. If he did express disturbing views he did this on non indexed platforms. I am surprised because I spent a lot of times on irc near lisp related (scheme, guile, emacs, so strictly speaking no CL, CLOS, lisp) channels and never heard bad mentions about him. Now I agree that this twitter account seems quite linked and probably pjb, but I can't decide anything based on just that.
  - anon4711 10y ago
    His projects were removed from quicklisp in September (see e.g. http://blog.quicklisp.org/2016/09/september-2016-quicklisp-dist-update.html http://blog.quicklisp.org/2016/09/september-2016-quicklisp-d...) over this matter.
    - agumonkey 10y ago
      That's a bit more telling. Are there any discussions on a mailing list ? or was is on irc and now lost ?
      - 10y ago

rsaarelm 10y ago

Ah, same guy as the one with probably the most infamous comp.lang.lisp post ever https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/iKNvssI5pE4 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/iKNvs...

AceJohnny2 10y ago

Hm, I wonder if there's something similar to what's happened with Terry A. Davis, author of what's been renamed to TempleOS [1]. He became schizophrenic, and has become less and less coherent over time. He used to have an account here, but either I can't remember it or it's been deleted: most of his posts were of the vile variety. There was an extensive profile of him on Motherboard [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TempleOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TempleOS [2] http://motherboard.vice.com/read/gods-lonely-programmer http://motherboard.vice.com/read/gods-lonely-programmer

AlexeyBrin 10y ago
You don't need to have a mental illness to be extreme right like https://twitter.com/ogamita https://twitter.com/ogamita seems to be.

bluefox 10y ago

Thank you for this post. I had technical interaction with him in the past, and read many of his technical posts. But I did not know this. I will no longer interact with him.

kazinator 10y ago

"ogamita" is an obvious palindrome of the "atimago" suffix of "informatimago".