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It's not about "wanting Flash to die". It's about improving web browsers so Flash is not necessary.

by jeff18 16y ago

waxpraxis 16y ago
Ah, but necessary is the key word there. Very little that Flash is used for is necessary, it's almost always about entertainment. HTML 5 is well suited to overtake some of the reasons developers have to use Flash - inline video players and many Flex apps. The HTML 5 technology stack is not well positioned to do everything Flash can do though - and I pointed out three key places where that's absolutely the case. The biggest point though is that HTML creeps slowly forward through a standards process that is laborious at best. Flash, being a de-facto standard controlled by one company doesn't have to wait - it can push and prod forward and let developers explore new ideas and create new experiences. Even if you don't care for Flash, you should appreciate what it does for pushing the web forward. Sure there are missteps - I think Flash ads are awful too, but the work and because of that HTML5 and canvas will be used to build just as annoying ads in the future.
- jessriedel 16y ago
  I think he means necessary to deliver the appropriate entertainment, not necessary in the True-Grit sense.
- daleharvey 16y ago
  html creeps forward exactly because of people using sub standard workarounds like flash, and those times are changing, anyone following what is happening on the web can see that real web development is starting to move at an extraordinary pace. the standards committee dont "design" the internet, by definition to become a specification someone needs to have implemented it, browser vendors are free to implement cool new features as fast as they want, w3c is just a forum for agreement on those new features. if we were waiting on rubber stamping from the w3c, we wouldnt even be using ajax right now.
  - waxpraxis 16y ago
    Right - but when did XmlHTTPRequest first rear it's head? 1999. When did AJAX actually take off? 2005. Six years. During the same time Flash went from a no scripting (well it was essentially programming via madlibs with Flash 4) to ActionScript 3 (Flex 2, the first place AS3 was used, was in early beta at the time I believe). New versions of the Flash Player only take a few months to hit 90%+ penetration rates.
    - daleharvey 16y ago
      yes but "noone supports new web standards" is a self fulfilling prophecy, we all know users dont know or care about what is happening under the hood, they arent going to push for ie to support canvas. as web developers we need to be pushing canvas and font-face and webgl etc and stop running back to propietary plugins every time a font kinda looks not exactly the same on every other machine as mine. Its pretty unarguable that open standards are fundamentally better than proprietary formats, a single company owning the format the web runs on would be disastrous, instead of opening this gap to push flash into, I think energy is better spent pressuring those involved to help push web standards to a point where flash is not needed, if every website didnt support ie6 tomorrow, next week ie6 would not exist, obviously that is a contrived situation but the fact is its us web developers that need to make sacrifices to make things work better on the users behalf, they cant and shouldnt be expected to do it themselves.
      - waxpraxis 16y ago
        Sure - but it's a constantly running cycle, people seem to forget that. HTML 5 will get adopted given enough time - but by that point Flash will have moved on and will do more and do it better. Then HTML will catch up again... etc. You can push HTML 5 and canvas all you'd like - but from a pure business standpoint if I can reach 98% of my audience with Flash, but only 40% with HTML5/Canvas I'd be an idiot to not choose Flash. It will be WONDERFUL when I can use canvas to draw realtime graphs and know it will reach 98% of my users. That day is not today and it won't be for some time to come. Now, that being said I and doing exactly that task with canvas for a project - but it's as a backup of the Flash version since the client expects a sizable iPad/iPhone audience.
wallflower 16y ago
I would argue it's about the market prodding Adobe to change their flagship Creative Suite tools to fully support HTML5 output. A major reason designers use Flash is because of the development environment. There is a slight possibility that a startup could take on Adobe, but the fact is there are hundreds of books on Adobe CS4/CS3 because they own the industry mindshare.
- not_an_alien 16y ago
  No, people use Flash because of what it can do as a platform. As "development environment" goes, Adobe's own tools are subpar and easily surpassed by third-party environments, many of them free. Wanting Adobe to create tools that output to HTML5 is like asking Porsche to put their engines in bicycles; it doesn't make any sense. Even if you include all the tentative, beta, untested, -webkit-*, or otherwise suggested features for the spec, HTML5 isn't even close to Flash in terms of complete features.
  - jasonlotito 16y ago
    Yeah, I don't know about that. I'm not a designer, but my wife is, and loves Adobe. Adobe this, Adobe that. She's tried other free tools, and always ends up finding things that simply can't be done. And then there is the packaging, all together. Everything works together. And I can appreciate that. A single suite of applications makes it easier to learn, makes it easier to manage, and makes it easier to train others.

It's not about "wanting Flash to die". It's about improving web browsers so Flash is not necessary.

by jeff18 16y ago

It's not about "wanting Flash to die". It's about improving web browsers so Flash is not necessary.

Ah, but necessary is the key word there. Very little that Flash is used for is necessary, it's almost always about entertainment. HTML 5 is well suited to overtake some of the reasons developers have to use Flash - inline video players and many Flex apps. The HTML 5 technology stack is not well positioned to do everything Flash can do though - and I pointed out three key places where that's absolutely the case. The biggest point though is that HTML creeps slowly forward through a standards process that is laborious at best. Flash, being a de-facto standard controlled by one company doesn't have to wait - it can push and prod forward and let developers explore new ideas and create new experiences. Even if you don't care for Flash, you should appreciate what it does for pushing the web forward. Sure there are missteps - I think Flash ads are awful too, but the work and because of that HTML5 and canvas will be used to build just as annoying ads in the future.

jessriedel 16y ago
I think he means necessary to deliver the appropriate entertainment, not necessary in the True-Grit sense.
daleharvey 16y ago
html creeps forward exactly because of people using sub standard workarounds like flash, and those times are changing, anyone following what is happening on the web can see that real web development is starting to move at an extraordinary pace. the standards committee dont "design" the internet, by definition to become a specification someone needs to have implemented it, browser vendors are free to implement cool new features as fast as they want, w3c is just a forum for agreement on those new features. if we were waiting on rubber stamping from the w3c, we wouldnt even be using ajax right now.
- waxpraxis 16y ago
  Right - but when did XmlHTTPRequest first rear it's head? 1999. When did AJAX actually take off? 2005. Six years. During the same time Flash went from a no scripting (well it was essentially programming via madlibs with Flash 4) to ActionScript 3 (Flex 2, the first place AS3 was used, was in early beta at the time I believe). New versions of the Flash Player only take a few months to hit 90%+ penetration rates.
  - daleharvey 16y ago
    yes but "noone supports new web standards" is a self fulfilling prophecy, we all know users dont know or care about what is happening under the hood, they arent going to push for ie to support canvas. as web developers we need to be pushing canvas and font-face and webgl etc and stop running back to propietary plugins every time a font kinda looks not exactly the same on every other machine as mine. Its pretty unarguable that open standards are fundamentally better than proprietary formats, a single company owning the format the web runs on would be disastrous, instead of opening this gap to push flash into, I think energy is better spent pressuring those involved to help push web standards to a point where flash is not needed, if every website didnt support ie6 tomorrow, next week ie6 would not exist, obviously that is a contrived situation but the fact is its us web developers that need to make sacrifices to make things work better on the users behalf, they cant and shouldnt be expected to do it themselves.
    - waxpraxis 16y ago
      Sure - but it's a constantly running cycle, people seem to forget that. HTML 5 will get adopted given enough time - but by that point Flash will have moved on and will do more and do it better. Then HTML will catch up again... etc. You can push HTML 5 and canvas all you'd like - but from a pure business standpoint if I can reach 98% of my audience with Flash, but only 40% with HTML5/Canvas I'd be an idiot to not choose Flash. It will be WONDERFUL when I can use canvas to draw realtime graphs and know it will reach 98% of my users. That day is not today and it won't be for some time to come. Now, that being said I and doing exactly that task with canvas for a project - but it's as a backup of the Flash version since the client expects a sizable iPad/iPhone audience.

wallflower 16y ago

I would argue it's about the market prodding Adobe to change their flagship Creative Suite tools to fully support HTML5 output. A major reason designers use Flash is because of the development environment. There is a slight possibility that a startup could take on Adobe, but the fact is there are hundreds of books on Adobe CS4/CS3 because they own the industry mindshare.

not_an_alien 16y ago
No, people use Flash because of what it can do as a platform. As "development environment" goes, Adobe's own tools are subpar and easily surpassed by third-party environments, many of them free. Wanting Adobe to create tools that output to HTML5 is like asking Porsche to put their engines in bicycles; it doesn't make any sense. Even if you include all the tentative, beta, untested, -webkit-*, or otherwise suggested features for the spec, HTML5 isn't even close to Flash in terms of complete features.
- jasonlotito 16y ago
  Yeah, I don't know about that. I'm not a designer, but my wife is, and loves Adobe. Adobe this, Adobe that. She's tried other free tools, and always ends up finding things that simply can't be done. And then there is the packaging, all together. Everything works together. And I can appreciate that. A single suite of applications makes it easier to learn, makes it easier to manage, and makes it easier to train others.