5 ms·

It makes me sad so see that they waste time on decoration like gif search but they don't have a client I can use on my PC for example.

by aluhut 10y ago

Vinnl 10y ago
Not perfect, but: https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/
- aluhut 10y ago
  Yes I did know about this but you probably know about the obvious problem > Signal Desktop is a Chrome app I'd rather switch to whatsapp before I intentionally install that PUP again.
  - finnn 10y ago
    It's just Javascript, you don't need Chrome to run it. eg[0] [0]: https://timtaubert.de/blog/2016/01/build-your-own-signal-desktop/ https://timtaubert.de/blog/2016/01/build-your-own-signal-des...
    - aluhut 10y ago
      Not sure if I should laugh or cry. I don't know what half of the stuff is I have to download there on a system I don't usually run. It's nice to know that it is possible to somehow get this running without Chrome and thanks for that but, hell...this is what I'm talking about. Wasting time on decorations that are now available through one button vs. THIS or the PUP version of it.
- knz 10y ago
  I've given up on Signal (for now at least). Yes the encryption and privacy is great but without a decent desktop client it's hard to get others in my network to switch to it. Two things bothered me about the desktop application - it runs as a Chrome application rather than in a tab (not sure if there is a technical reason for this?). If I care enough out privacy to run Signal then I probably don't want to broadcast to anyone watching my screen that I'm running it (like a boss walking past etc) and would rather bury it amongst my other open tabs. I also couldn't find any obvious way to sign out of or lock the desktop client - if this isn't just user error then it seems like a significant oversight for a secure messaging app to not allow the user to control access if someone else was able to access the computer. It also really bothered me that signal doesn't give me better control over what contacts can see my phone number. When I signed in I could see phone numbers for a contractor I had used for remodelling my home. The desktop client had them listed as someone to message on the default page. It's not a huge deal in this situation but if the phone number was for someone I no longer wanted to be in touch with (a former partner etc) then there was no obvious way in either the Android app or desktop client to block them. I assume that the other user can also see my details - security should include having control over who can see your phone number. Edit: Screenshots from the desktop app as a response to comment below: http://imgur.com/5nK07ER http://imgur.com/5nK07ER - the default screen http://imgur.com/mmEyQWH http://imgur.com/mmEyQWH - the settings UI http://imgur.com/gjdyPsF http://imgur.com/gjdyPsF - showing Signal in my dock for all to see.
  - morsch 10y ago
    There is a desktop client. It's packaged as a Chrome app. Some people downthread think a "decent" desktop app must be (more) standalone. You seem to think a "decent" desktop app should live inside a browser tab. It's hard to make everybody happy. People need to stop claiming there is no desktop app just because the very clearly existing one does not fulfill their own arbitrary set of criteria. I don't know if you can sign out within Signal desktop (I assume you can, but I can't verify at the moment); you can sign out existing Signal sessions from within the mobile app. The phone number is Signal's account identifier. You don't see somebody else's phone number because you've got them on Signal, you're seeing them on Signal because you've got their phone number. So you're worried about people having access to your phone number who already have access to your phone number. Signal using phone numbers as account identifiers has it's issues, this is not one of them.
    - knz 10y ago
      I don't mean to be negative about Signal. I appreciate the work they have put into it and understand that the platform is maturing - as you said, they can't please everyone. The chrome app vs tab is definitely a minor issue related to user preference. It's not a deal breaker for me personally but others in my network (who are less concerned about privacy) will not switch if it's not easy. Not being able to sign out is a possible deal breaker and seems like basic functionality that has security implications. Thanks for the information about the phone numbers - I understand that they aren't a "contact" in the sense that we added each other. I do think the issue of having control over who can see my phone number is a valid one though. How would I block someone I no longer want to have contact with without changing my phone number? Again, this seems like basic functionality for a platform that is concerned about security and privacy. Here are screenshots from the desktop app showing the only options I can see: http://imgur.com/5nK07ER http://imgur.com/5nK07ER - the default screen (includes the contact that I mentioned in my first post as someone I can message right now.) http://imgur.com/mmEyQWH http://imgur.com/mmEyQWH - the settings UI
      - codethief 10y ago
        On Android there's a button in the conversation settings to block the other party.
- Joeboy 10y ago
  Because I know moxie comes here sometimes: I can live with it being a Chrome app, but I'd really like it if I could use it to send messages to people who don't have Signal (like I can with the Android app). Signal mostly takes the path of being a drop-in replacement for my SMS app, so it seems a shame not to do the same here.
  - moosingin3space 10y ago
    Wouldn't it then require a connection to the phone? Signal Desktop today doesn't need to connect to the phone.
    - Joeboy 10y ago
      Ah, I suppose that makes sense. I thought it worked via the phone.
verroq 10y ago
I honestly don't know if this comment is serious. My girlfriend won't use Signal because it doesn't let her send stickers. This is only a first step in the right direction.
- lucastx 10y ago
  People underestimate a lot the power of "useless" features, if well designed, to attract new users. Telegram's Stickers are probably one of the features that most people feel other messengers lack to make people enjoy using it. Lots of friends are actually communicating daily through GIF's.
  - my_ghola 10y ago
    The desktop client without having to have my phone around is useful too.
    - nickik 10y ago
      There is a desktop client. Even if you don't use chrome/chromium, keeping it open somewhere is not impossible task.
- aluhut 10y ago
  And when she has them, it'll be something different ridiculous. Seriously, this is what whatsapp is for. I don't see why we have to dump down EVERYTHING for those people. From my own experience the biggest reason is that "my friends are elsewhere". I force my gf to use signal, her mother started to use it too because of that and because she wants to have PC problems solved by me. Same goes for other people that want to interact with me through an communication app like Signal. Other just have to call or write an SMS. Those functions are still there.
  - adrianN 10y ago
    Encryption is only really useful when everybody participates. Otherwise you just have to arrest the people using it. So dumbing it down is actually pretty important.
wtbob 10y ago
I wish that they'd support secure contact sharing. And non-phone-number IDs.
- aluhut 10y ago
  Yes, exactly. You'd think those should be basics for a chat application that is so focused on security. You would expect that. What you would not expect is gif search...
- jhasse 10y ago
  Telegram supports non-phone-number IDs btw.
endemic 10y ago
Read this article yesterday (https://www.techinasia.com/line-dev-day https://www.techinasia.com/line-dev-day), and the introduction was eye-opening. tl;dr people like that extra stuff in messaging apps.
- aluhut 10y ago
  Sure they do. But how this go together with security awareness? We are talking about a different market here and as I've posted somewhere else: sure we can have all that trendy crap in there at some point but please don't move that BEFORE the bigger issues out there. Let's not forget that we are talking about a free app here. If this app is being developed with an eye on monetizing at some point, chances are it will become insecure with that and just join the rows of chat apps out there already covering all that trending features. Which will lead to a different app covering the needs of people who use Signal today because they need secure messaging not another app with dancing puppies.
nibs 10y ago
I think the key thing is not to sacrifice performance for form. Add all the stickers, GIFs, bots and other fancy features you want. But never let load time get under 200ms. Lots of people talking about how this makes it more broadly applicable but Facebook didn't just beat MySpace on simplicity of use and Farmville access, they also beat them on speed and reliability. Not mutually exclusive either. Keep up the good work.
MichaelGG 10y ago
Or basic message reliability? There's no reason I should be getting "Bad encrypted message" so often. Or tons of repeats. And out of order messages. And random deliverability problems. And it seems like it has a way of picking just the right time to fuck up. Right when there's a big question or when I need to say something important, bam, Signal will start being erratic. Plus the repeat messages has on at least one occasion ended up providing a totally different meaning. I'd say with one particular contact, we exchange screenshots of Signal over MMS once a day to avoid misunderstandings.
droopybuns 10y ago
1) We're moving from a mobile-first to mobile-only world. This prioritization shows that the signal team are fundamentally pragmatic. 2) Most people rely on cliche to communicate. It's obvious that gifs are another cheat that is being commonly integrated by most people. It's kind of silly to avoid acknowledging the reality of how younger people are commonly communicating. 3) Please don't be sad because a software team prioritized a feature you don't like. You deserve to have more control over your own emotions. Why would you let a software feature have such a drastic impact on your own happiness?
aluhut 10y ago
/// Wow. Woke up to not a single new comment but massive downvotes. Very mature guys.

It makes me sad so see that they waste time on decoration like gif search but they don't have a client I can use on my PC for example.

by aluhut 10y ago

It makes me sad so see that they waste time on decoration like gif search but they don't have a client I can use on my PC for example.

Vinnl 10y ago

Not perfect, but: https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/

aluhut 10y ago
Yes I did know about this but you probably know about the obvious problem > Signal Desktop is a Chrome app I'd rather switch to whatsapp before I intentionally install that PUP again.
- finnn 10y ago
  It's just Javascript, you don't need Chrome to run it. eg[0] [0]: https://timtaubert.de/blog/2016/01/build-your-own-signal-desktop/ https://timtaubert.de/blog/2016/01/build-your-own-signal-des...
  - aluhut 10y ago
    Not sure if I should laugh or cry. I don't know what half of the stuff is I have to download there on a system I don't usually run. It's nice to know that it is possible to somehow get this running without Chrome and thanks for that but, hell...this is what I'm talking about. Wasting time on decorations that are now available through one button vs. THIS or the PUP version of it.
knz 10y ago
I've given up on Signal (for now at least). Yes the encryption and privacy is great but without a decent desktop client it's hard to get others in my network to switch to it. Two things bothered me about the desktop application - it runs as a Chrome application rather than in a tab (not sure if there is a technical reason for this?). If I care enough out privacy to run Signal then I probably don't want to broadcast to anyone watching my screen that I'm running it (like a boss walking past etc) and would rather bury it amongst my other open tabs. I also couldn't find any obvious way to sign out of or lock the desktop client - if this isn't just user error then it seems like a significant oversight for a secure messaging app to not allow the user to control access if someone else was able to access the computer. It also really bothered me that signal doesn't give me better control over what contacts can see my phone number. When I signed in I could see phone numbers for a contractor I had used for remodelling my home. The desktop client had them listed as someone to message on the default page. It's not a huge deal in this situation but if the phone number was for someone I no longer wanted to be in touch with (a former partner etc) then there was no obvious way in either the Android app or desktop client to block them. I assume that the other user can also see my details - security should include having control over who can see your phone number. Edit: Screenshots from the desktop app as a response to comment below: http://imgur.com/5nK07ER http://imgur.com/5nK07ER - the default screen http://imgur.com/mmEyQWH http://imgur.com/mmEyQWH - the settings UI http://imgur.com/gjdyPsF http://imgur.com/gjdyPsF - showing Signal in my dock for all to see.
- morsch 10y ago
  There is a desktop client. It's packaged as a Chrome app. Some people downthread think a "decent" desktop app must be (more) standalone. You seem to think a "decent" desktop app should live inside a browser tab. It's hard to make everybody happy. People need to stop claiming there is no desktop app just because the very clearly existing one does not fulfill their own arbitrary set of criteria. I don't know if you can sign out within Signal desktop (I assume you can, but I can't verify at the moment); you can sign out existing Signal sessions from within the mobile app. The phone number is Signal's account identifier. You don't see somebody else's phone number because you've got them on Signal, you're seeing them on Signal because you've got their phone number. So you're worried about people having access to your phone number who already have access to your phone number. Signal using phone numbers as account identifiers has it's issues, this is not one of them.
  - knz 10y ago
    I don't mean to be negative about Signal. I appreciate the work they have put into it and understand that the platform is maturing - as you said, they can't please everyone. The chrome app vs tab is definitely a minor issue related to user preference. It's not a deal breaker for me personally but others in my network (who are less concerned about privacy) will not switch if it's not easy. Not being able to sign out is a possible deal breaker and seems like basic functionality that has security implications. Thanks for the information about the phone numbers - I understand that they aren't a "contact" in the sense that we added each other. I do think the issue of having control over who can see my phone number is a valid one though. How would I block someone I no longer want to have contact with without changing my phone number? Again, this seems like basic functionality for a platform that is concerned about security and privacy. Here are screenshots from the desktop app showing the only options I can see: http://imgur.com/5nK07ER http://imgur.com/5nK07ER - the default screen (includes the contact that I mentioned in my first post as someone I can message right now.) http://imgur.com/mmEyQWH http://imgur.com/mmEyQWH - the settings UI
    - codethief 10y ago
      On Android there's a button in the conversation settings to block the other party.
Joeboy 10y ago
Because I know moxie comes here sometimes: I can live with it being a Chrome app, but I'd really like it if I could use it to send messages to people who don't have Signal (like I can with the Android app). Signal mostly takes the path of being a drop-in replacement for my SMS app, so it seems a shame not to do the same here.
- moosingin3space 10y ago
  Wouldn't it then require a connection to the phone? Signal Desktop today doesn't need to connect to the phone.
  - Joeboy 10y ago
    Ah, I suppose that makes sense. I thought it worked via the phone.

verroq 10y ago

I honestly don't know if this comment is serious. My girlfriend won't use Signal because it doesn't let her send stickers. This is only a first step in the right direction.

lucastx 10y ago
People underestimate a lot the power of "useless" features, if well designed, to attract new users. Telegram's Stickers are probably one of the features that most people feel other messengers lack to make people enjoy using it. Lots of friends are actually communicating daily through GIF's.
- my_ghola 10y ago
  The desktop client without having to have my phone around is useful too.
  - nickik 10y ago
    There is a desktop client. Even if you don't use chrome/chromium, keeping it open somewhere is not impossible task.
aluhut 10y ago
And when she has them, it'll be something different ridiculous. Seriously, this is what whatsapp is for. I don't see why we have to dump down EVERYTHING for those people. From my own experience the biggest reason is that "my friends are elsewhere". I force my gf to use signal, her mother started to use it too because of that and because she wants to have PC problems solved by me. Same goes for other people that want to interact with me through an communication app like Signal. Other just have to call or write an SMS. Those functions are still there.
- adrianN 10y ago
  Encryption is only really useful when everybody participates. Otherwise you just have to arrest the people using it. So dumbing it down is actually pretty important.

wtbob 10y ago

I wish that they'd support secure contact sharing. And non-phone-number IDs.

aluhut 10y ago
Yes, exactly. You'd think those should be basics for a chat application that is so focused on security. You would expect that. What you would not expect is gif search...
jhasse 10y ago
Telegram supports non-phone-number IDs btw.

endemic 10y ago

Read this article yesterday (https://www.techinasia.com/line-dev-day https://www.techinasia.com/line-dev-day), and the introduction was eye-opening. tl;dr people like that extra stuff in messaging apps.

aluhut 10y ago
Sure they do. But how this go together with security awareness? We are talking about a different market here and as I've posted somewhere else: sure we can have all that trendy crap in there at some point but please don't move that BEFORE the bigger issues out there. Let's not forget that we are talking about a free app here. If this app is being developed with an eye on monetizing at some point, chances are it will become insecure with that and just join the rows of chat apps out there already covering all that trending features. Which will lead to a different app covering the needs of people who use Signal today because they need secure messaging not another app with dancing puppies.

nibs 10y ago

I think the key thing is not to sacrifice performance for form. Add all the stickers, GIFs, bots and other fancy features you want. But never let load time get under 200ms. Lots of people talking about how this makes it more broadly applicable but Facebook didn't just beat MySpace on simplicity of use and Farmville access, they also beat them on speed and reliability. Not mutually exclusive either. Keep up the good work.

MichaelGG 10y ago

Or basic message reliability? There's no reason I should be getting "Bad encrypted message" so often. Or tons of repeats. And out of order messages. And random deliverability problems. And it seems like it has a way of picking just the right time to fuck up. Right when there's a big question or when I need to say something important, bam, Signal will start being erratic. Plus the repeat messages has on at least one occasion ended up providing a totally different meaning. I'd say with one particular contact, we exchange screenshots of Signal over MMS once a day to avoid misunderstandings.

droopybuns 10y ago

1) We're moving from a mobile-first to mobile-only world. This prioritization shows that the signal team are fundamentally pragmatic. 2) Most people rely on cliche to communicate. It's obvious that gifs are another cheat that is being commonly integrated by most people. It's kind of silly to avoid acknowledging the reality of how younger people are commonly communicating. 3) Please don't be sad because a software team prioritized a feature you don't like. You deserve to have more control over your own emotions. Why would you let a software feature have such a drastic impact on your own happiness?

aluhut 10y ago

/// Wow. Woke up to not a single new comment but massive downvotes. Very mature guys.