10 ms·

I was fired from Wickr.com a few months after their layoffs. I was fired from Wickr a few months ago. The given reason was they considered me not a Senior Andr

by andy 10y ago

I was fired from Wickr.com a few months after their layoffs. I was fired from Wickr a few months ago. The given reason was they considered me not a Senior Android Developer and that was my title - I asked too many questions apparently. My manager indicated that if my title had been Android Developer there probably would not have been a problem. I don't care about titles really. I was hired in 2014 as a contractor for 3 months, and then they converted me to a salaried employee. I'm currently searching for a job. I'm finding it challenging to find my next job I think due to disclosing that I was fired from Wickr after a performance review and me being there 2 years doesn't help. The interesting thing is the performance review was held in December 2015, a few months after some layoffs where I was not affected but coworkers were. Another interesting thing is Wickr HR person told us that during the performance review to not expect any surprises. However, this underperformance was a complete surprise to me. I had never been notified. Personally, I would prefer to be laid off vs fired, even if it means a few months less of salary. It was very easy for me to obtain the job at Wickr. I wasn't asked hardly any technical questions and just did a phone screen, never met in person. One thing is I liked being a contractor at Wickr because I was paid for hours worked. The CTO was very insistent about us working overtime, meaning nights and weekends. I complained to him about this overtime requirement without getting paid in an email about a month before my performance review. The reason I emailed was because we were just in a scrum meeting where management was asking us for feedback on how the sprint went.

istorical 10y ago
Nobody in this world is gonna fight for you other than yourself. Don't bring up the termination without being asked if you were fired (in which case it may be better to just admit it), when you're talking about work experience just say after working there for some time you then decided to pursue other opportunities. Maybe 3 out 4 companies will still figure it out, but all you need is that one success.
JamesBarney 10y ago
First question is are you sure you were fired with cause and not laid off? If you're sure it's the first you might want to consult a lawyer. Usually a company needs a pretty strong paper trail and a lot of evidence of you screwing up royally before they can fire with cause.
- amdavidson 10y ago
  Wickr is based in SF. CA is an at-will state. Many companies prefer to have a strong paper trail and a lot of evidence to scare people away from filing wrongful termination suits, but he could have been fired just because the boss didn't like him without any legal repercussions.
- scolson 10y ago
  Obviously, they should consult a lawyer, but I want to clarify this point, because the parent comment can be very misleading. If you have a specific employment contract, all bets are off and only your lawyer and the courts can really determine what is/is not a permissible dismissal. Assuming no contract, "cause" needs vary by state, so you can't just trust the parent message. In At-Will states, most of the time, you can be fired for any reason (except protected reasons) at any time including "asking too many questions", "asking the wrong questions", "not asking enough questions", or "he/she looked at me funny and I was in a bad mood." All are perfectly valid reasons for an on-the-spot dismissal in an At-Will state. Now where it gets trickier is filing for unemployment. This can be harder to navigate than simple At-Will rules. In my state, all of the following will be docked against the employer for unemployment compensation: * Just felt like firing someone * Asks too many/not enough questions * Constant quality issues * Couldn't actually code and in a developer role In all of the above, it is expected that the employer either should have figured it out before hiring, or should train/retrain to address the situation. If an employer fires you for a policy violation, then unemployment will not be charged back to the employer (and likely the employee is not "unemployment eligible"). Usually this involves a longer paper trail with multiple meetings and "official" written notice of a policy violation in your company file before being terminated. Generally, this is a CYA thing for the employer so you cannot claim "you didn't know." Protip: If there is a bs policy that everyone violates, you can still be fired for-cause for violating it. Chances are if this happens, someone really doesn't like you and they want a good reason to get you out. But in all cases in an At-Will state, you are still out of a job. (PS: You notice I do not name my state. Since this is an already tricky situation, assume my state is fictitious, and the rules and experiences are equally made up. Ask your lawyer or the equivalent of your state's (un)employment department/commission/branch for how things apply in your state.)
KB1JWQ 10y ago
Hand of fate is moving and its finger points to you It throws you on the street; now what's next for you? Your options: worthless, and you're bound by NDA Pied Piper seems quite cushy, best update your resume -- Iron Maiden, "The Wickr Man"
- jszymborski 10y ago
  are you suggesting he apply for a job at that new compression company Hooli tried to buy?
  - muyuu 10y ago
    Their middle-out algorithm doe, what a Weisman score.
traviswingo 10y ago
I would honestly refrain from telling people you were fired in that case, and simply state you were laid off. I would then begin to infer that something fishy was going on internally and that you're probably better off not being involved with the company anymore. It really sounds to me like management didn't know how to deal with the situation and a "performance review" was simply their scapegoat, and not the reality of why they let you go. I wouldn't be surprised if you were performing at a high level and they were just trying to cut the team down to the originals. These things happen all the time. Good luck to you!
- kyrra 10y ago
  Agreed. If your former employer is smart, they won't say much beyond "yes, that person worked here" when contacted by any company that is looking to hire you. If they say anything that directly results in you being denied a job, it opens them up to lawsuits. (at least that's my understanding)
  - mgkimsal 10y ago
    > If they say anything that directly results in you being denied a job, it opens them up to lawsuits. This is the received wisdom, but not sure it happens. It might be something that happens at high levels, but it's uncommon for most people to even get a rejection letter or email in the first place, this notion of companies badmouthing you then them telling you that's why you were not hired is just... weird. Someone would have to call/email your former company, they'd have to put something in writing (or recording) that specifically was negative about you, the company you are applying to would then need to keep a record of that, and then tell you why you weren't hired was because of that negative information. Has that ever happened to anyone? It feels to me like the 'lawsuits!' excuse is mostly a smokescreen to cover people being lazy, rude or incompetent at their job of actually managing a hiring process.
    - slgeorge 10y ago
      It may not happen, but many companies believe it could happen. Consequently, they say next to nothing about ex-employees - only the dates of employment. If you're the company being asked for the reference there is no upside in you saying that Joe was fired - why would you want to help another company, and why would you want to risk (however infinitesimal) a law suit. This is commonly defined by policy, simply ask the last company that you worked at what their policy is for references and what data they will reveal.
andy 10y ago
I'm not looking to sue Wickr! I am sure I was fired not laid off. I don't bring up to people on interviews that I was fired. I wait for them to ask. I have my own company, so I am even considering taking Wickr completely off my resume completely. I don't know.
andy 10y ago
Something funny is they granted me some additional stock options which I did not purchase after my negative review and before they fired me. Being fired was actually a surprise to me, I thought I had improved at least a little bit.
JSeymourATL 10y ago
> Personally, I would prefer to be laid off vs fired... That's a distinction with very little difference. You got pushed out. Creating a poor employee performance review is standard corporate cover for incompetent managers. Besides, who do you want on the team? Cheerfully loyal minions or the guy who gripes about overtime? Use the Group Restructure/Company Lay-offs as your cover story for leaving and move-on.
- timv 10y ago
  That is definitely the approach I would use. Something like: "The company went through a series of restructures and down-sizing, and I got caught up in that. They mostly kept the junior staff and a lot of the senior developers were let go."
  - bbcbasic 10y ago
    Smooth!
acedinlowball 10y ago
From this comment, I can get a sense of why you were fired. "The reason I emailed was because we were just in a scrum meeting where management was asking us for feedback on how the sprint went." They wanted feedback on a sprint and you complained about overtime? Pretty easy to see why you got the axe.
- nathan_long 10y ago
  > Pretty easy to see why you got the axe. What!? "How did this sprint go?" "Well, I had to work a lot of overtime to finish my work on it." If you're the manager, do you 1) take this as a sign of poor planning or 2) fire the employee? I mean, it depends on context, but if you fire people because they complain, you're going to lose all trust and everyone who knows they can find work elsewhere.
- andy 10y ago
  Yes, I liked being a contractor for that reason.

by andy 10y ago

istorical 10y ago

Nobody in this world is gonna fight for you other than yourself. Don't bring up the termination without being asked if you were fired (in which case it may be better to just admit it), when you're talking about work experience just say after working there for some time you then decided to pursue other opportunities. Maybe 3 out 4 companies will still figure it out, but all you need is that one success.

JamesBarney 10y ago

First question is are you sure you were fired with cause and not laid off? If you're sure it's the first you might want to consult a lawyer. Usually a company needs a pretty strong paper trail and a lot of evidence of you screwing up royally before they can fire with cause.

amdavidson 10y ago
Wickr is based in SF. CA is an at-will state. Many companies prefer to have a strong paper trail and a lot of evidence to scare people away from filing wrongful termination suits, but he could have been fired just because the boss didn't like him without any legal repercussions.
scolson 10y ago
Obviously, they should consult a lawyer, but I want to clarify this point, because the parent comment can be very misleading. If you have a specific employment contract, all bets are off and only your lawyer and the courts can really determine what is/is not a permissible dismissal. Assuming no contract, "cause" needs vary by state, so you can't just trust the parent message. In At-Will states, most of the time, you can be fired for any reason (except protected reasons) at any time including "asking too many questions", "asking the wrong questions", "not asking enough questions", or "he/she looked at me funny and I was in a bad mood." All are perfectly valid reasons for an on-the-spot dismissal in an At-Will state. Now where it gets trickier is filing for unemployment. This can be harder to navigate than simple At-Will rules. In my state, all of the following will be docked against the employer for unemployment compensation: * Just felt like firing someone * Asks too many/not enough questions * Constant quality issues * Couldn't actually code and in a developer role In all of the above, it is expected that the employer either should have figured it out before hiring, or should train/retrain to address the situation. If an employer fires you for a policy violation, then unemployment will not be charged back to the employer (and likely the employee is not "unemployment eligible"). Usually this involves a longer paper trail with multiple meetings and "official" written notice of a policy violation in your company file before being terminated. Generally, this is a CYA thing for the employer so you cannot claim "you didn't know." Protip: If there is a bs policy that everyone violates, you can still be fired for-cause for violating it. Chances are if this happens, someone really doesn't like you and they want a good reason to get you out. But in all cases in an At-Will state, you are still out of a job. (PS: You notice I do not name my state. Since this is an already tricky situation, assume my state is fictitious, and the rules and experiences are equally made up. Ask your lawyer or the equivalent of your state's (un)employment department/commission/branch for how things apply in your state.)

KB1JWQ 10y ago

Hand of fate is moving and its finger points to you It throws you on the street; now what's next for you? Your options: worthless, and you're bound by NDA Pied Piper seems quite cushy, best update your resume -- Iron Maiden, "The Wickr Man"

jszymborski 10y ago
are you suggesting he apply for a job at that new compression company Hooli tried to buy?
- muyuu 10y ago
  Their middle-out algorithm doe, what a Weisman score.

traviswingo 10y ago

I would honestly refrain from telling people you were fired in that case, and simply state you were laid off. I would then begin to infer that something fishy was going on internally and that you're probably better off not being involved with the company anymore. It really sounds to me like management didn't know how to deal with the situation and a "performance review" was simply their scapegoat, and not the reality of why they let you go. I wouldn't be surprised if you were performing at a high level and they were just trying to cut the team down to the originals. These things happen all the time. Good luck to you!

kyrra 10y ago
Agreed. If your former employer is smart, they won't say much beyond "yes, that person worked here" when contacted by any company that is looking to hire you. If they say anything that directly results in you being denied a job, it opens them up to lawsuits. (at least that's my understanding)
- mgkimsal 10y ago
  > If they say anything that directly results in you being denied a job, it opens them up to lawsuits. This is the received wisdom, but not sure it happens. It might be something that happens at high levels, but it's uncommon for most people to even get a rejection letter or email in the first place, this notion of companies badmouthing you then them telling you that's why you were not hired is just... weird. Someone would have to call/email your former company, they'd have to put something in writing (or recording) that specifically was negative about you, the company you are applying to would then need to keep a record of that, and then tell you why you weren't hired was because of that negative information. Has that ever happened to anyone? It feels to me like the 'lawsuits!' excuse is mostly a smokescreen to cover people being lazy, rude or incompetent at their job of actually managing a hiring process.
  - slgeorge 10y ago
    It may not happen, but many companies believe it could happen. Consequently, they say next to nothing about ex-employees - only the dates of employment. If you're the company being asked for the reference there is no upside in you saying that Joe was fired - why would you want to help another company, and why would you want to risk (however infinitesimal) a law suit. This is commonly defined by policy, simply ask the last company that you worked at what their policy is for references and what data they will reveal.

andy 10y ago

I'm not looking to sue Wickr! I am sure I was fired not laid off. I don't bring up to people on interviews that I was fired. I wait for them to ask. I have my own company, so I am even considering taking Wickr completely off my resume completely. I don't know.

andy 10y ago

Something funny is they granted me some additional stock options which I did not purchase after my negative review and before they fired me. Being fired was actually a surprise to me, I thought I had improved at least a little bit.

JSeymourATL 10y ago

> Personally, I would prefer to be laid off vs fired... That's a distinction with very little difference. You got pushed out. Creating a poor employee performance review is standard corporate cover for incompetent managers. Besides, who do you want on the team? Cheerfully loyal minions or the guy who gripes about overtime? Use the Group Restructure/Company Lay-offs as your cover story for leaving and move-on.

timv 10y ago
That is definitely the approach I would use. Something like: "The company went through a series of restructures and down-sizing, and I got caught up in that. They mostly kept the junior staff and a lot of the senior developers were let go."
- bbcbasic 10y ago
  Smooth!

acedinlowball 10y ago

From this comment, I can get a sense of why you were fired. "The reason I emailed was because we were just in a scrum meeting where management was asking us for feedback on how the sprint went." They wanted feedback on a sprint and you complained about overtime? Pretty easy to see why you got the axe.

nathan_long 10y ago
> Pretty easy to see why you got the axe. What!? "How did this sprint go?" "Well, I had to work a lot of overtime to finish my work on it." If you're the manager, do you 1) take this as a sign of poor planning or 2) fire the employee? I mean, it depends on context, but if you fire people because they complain, you're going to lose all trust and everyone who knows they can find work elsewhere.
andy 10y ago
Yes, I liked being a contractor for that reason.