8 ms·

Emacs standing alone on a Linux Kernel (2004)

178 points by Ivoah 10y ago

noir_lord 10y ago
In concept it kinda reminds me of Oberon (I wish those had succeeded) though the integration between the kernel and the language (elisp) isn't anything like as tight. For anyone who hasn't seen it (and a chance to look at the path not taken). https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ProjectOberon1992.pdf https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ProjectOberon1992.pdf
- enqk 10y ago
  Link to the second (2013) edition: http://www.projectoberon.com/ http://www.projectoberon.com/
  - noir_lord 10y ago
    Neat, I'd forgotten about that, there is also this http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ which I keep getting tempted by.
    - enqk 10y ago
      I thought your comparison w/ Emacs was apt. When analysed as an interactive application Oberon makes me think the most Acme, then Emacs. I'm struggling with defining the genuine distinctions between operating system, application server and applications. It seems the distinction has to do with boundaries and how they are enforced, and by whom (I.e. the amount of user control one has on factors such as security, isolation in contrast to the application writer)
      - sedachv 10y ago
        > When analysed as an interactive application Oberon makes me think the most Acme, then Emacs. Rob Pike borrowed the UI/UX of Acme from Oberon: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.html http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.html IMO the Oberon/Acme text-based command approach suffers all of the problems of Unix shells, which are caused by lack of type information. Symbolics Genera's Dynamic Windows used the mouse in a similar way to Oberon but with actions guided by type information, concepts which can be found today in the Common Lisp Interface Manager (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Interface_Manager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Interface_Manager). There are Emacs modes like SLIME that do similar things and are widely used.
      - ricksplat 10y ago
        >I'm struggling with defining the genuine distinctions between operating system, application server and applications. Two important concepts are abstraction as you go up the stack (towards the application) and generalisation of functionality as you go down (towards the OS).
- gkya 10y ago
  FWIW Emacs now has support for C modules in version 25, so tighter integration is possible
JulianMorrison 10y ago
It's a nice operating system but someone needs to port a decent text editor.
- mnw21cam 10y ago
  Never mind, you can always execute an instance of vim from your emacs shell.
- cmrx64 10y ago
  spacemacs ;)
  - JulianMorrison 10y ago
    To clarify this gnomic reply: http://spacemacs.org/ http://spacemacs.org/ it's sort of a modal emacs with live keybinding display.
    - cmrx64 10y ago
      And it integrates many "vimisms" via evil-mode. I'd been a vim user for a long time but was increasingly dissatisfied as I got deeper into extending it. I've found the opposite of emacs (especially with spacemacs) almost a year into the "conversion". One example that I've come around with was an initial extreme distaste of dynamic binding/non-lexical scope, from a PL standpoint of writing robust software. But it's also super nice for incremental, interactive development.
      - sevensor 10y ago
        Having tried spacemacs, I bounced back to vim. Even though vim is just a tiny bit more responsive, it's enough to make emacs feel laggy. Granted, I use extensions very lightly, so I'm not feeling the qualitative difference of being able to do something in spacemacs that's impossible in vim.
        johanvts 10y ago
wictory 10y ago
Wouldn't it be better to port emacs to includeOS?
- Ericson2314 10y ago
  includeOS + guile + guile-emacs
jbicha 10y ago
It's appropriate to call this at least GNU/Linux, right?
- peatmoss 10y ago
  Yes, though I'd rather this run on OpenBSD's kernel. I'd want all two of my softwares to span the GPL/BSD divide.
  - amyjess 10y ago
    Nah, NetBSD. Let's see how many obscure architectures can run Emacs OS!
    - pedrocr 10y ago
      Linux supports more architectures than NetBSD apparently.
throwanem 10y ago
Why Emacs 21.3? That's ancient.
- JonathonW 10y ago
  Because this was written in 2004 (or earlier; 2004 is the first time archive.org crawled it).
TuringTest 10y ago
So it has come to this
dschiptsov 10y ago
What, no systemd?
treuss 10y ago
I always thought it was the other way around ... ఠ_ఠ
anon4711 10y ago
PJB has become a bit (too little for my taste) of a persona non grata in the common lisp world (which has a large overlap with the emacs world) ever since it was suggested and so far not disproved (names match, nicknames match) that he's the person behind https://twitter.com/ogamita https://twitter.com/ogamita edit: To make it more precise, full names are identical and http://www.informatimago.com/index.html http://www.informatimago.com/index.html links to http://pjb.ogamita.org http://pjb.ogamita.org which uses the same name (ogamita) as that twitter account.
- omginternets 10y ago
  I dislike holocaust-deniers as much as the next guy, but I find it troubling that one's political opinions should prevent us from considering a person's work in a distinct domain. This is especially true in the present case: I see no evidence that PJB has crossed the Hitler stream with the common lisp stream. People can be smart and respectable in one domain and stupid in another.
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    This is especially important to keep in mind because there is no way to shun a person and change their mind on the opinion that led to their shunning. Only engagement does that.
    - anon4711 10y ago
      There are two sides to this and I think they're important to distinguish: If the person in question was wrongfully accused, this could do undeserved damage to him. This would be a misfortune (albeit not a great one given how little activity my comment generated) but I'm currently sufficiently convinced this won't happen that I went ahead and posted the comment. The other matter is rehabilitation. Whether he should be allowed to apologise at some point, say that he made a mistake, and be welcomed back, is something that you cannot decide for everyone. It's up to your personal beliefs, in particular your religion. Everybody needs to determine that for him- or herself, in my opinion.
  - 10y ago
Koshkin 10y ago
At least today they could have used yet another kernel for this. That would hurd more.
haylem 10y ago
There's also always this, which I found pretty cool and somewhat functional as well, though it goes beyong the bare "emacs on a kernel" concept: http://www.howardism.org/Technical/Emacs/new-window-manager.html http://www.howardism.org/Technical/Emacs/new-window-manager.... I one had a VM at a workplace where all I had were outdated hardware specs and outdated versions of Windows with few administrative privileges. It helped to retain some sanity. For some time.
gravypod 10y ago
What's that saying? Emacs is a great OS it just needs a good text editor?

178 points by Ivoah 10y ago

In concept it kinda reminds me of Oberon (I wish those had succeeded) though the integration between the kernel and the language (elisp) isn't anything like as tight. For anyone who hasn't seen it (and a chance to look at the path not taken). https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ProjectOberon1992.pdf https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ProjectOberon1992.pdf

enqk 10y ago
Link to the second (2013) edition: http://www.projectoberon.com/ http://www.projectoberon.com/
- noir_lord 10y ago
  Neat, I'd forgotten about that, there is also this http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ http://oberonstation.x10.mx/ which I keep getting tempted by.
  - enqk 10y ago
    I thought your comparison w/ Emacs was apt. When analysed as an interactive application Oberon makes me think the most Acme, then Emacs. I'm struggling with defining the genuine distinctions between operating system, application server and applications. It seems the distinction has to do with boundaries and how they are enforced, and by whom (I.e. the amount of user control one has on factors such as security, isolation in contrast to the application writer)
    - sedachv 10y ago
      > When analysed as an interactive application Oberon makes me think the most Acme, then Emacs. Rob Pike borrowed the UI/UX of Acme from Oberon: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.html http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/acme/acme.html IMO the Oberon/Acme text-based command approach suffers all of the problems of Unix shells, which are caused by lack of type information. Symbolics Genera's Dynamic Windows used the mouse in a similar way to Oberon but with actions guided by type information, concepts which can be found today in the Common Lisp Interface Manager (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Interface_Manager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Interface_Manager). There are Emacs modes like SLIME that do similar things and are widely used.
    - ricksplat 10y ago
      >I'm struggling with defining the genuine distinctions between operating system, application server and applications. Two important concepts are abstraction as you go up the stack (towards the application) and generalisation of functionality as you go down (towards the OS).
gkya 10y ago
FWIW Emacs now has support for C modules in version 25, so tighter integration is possible

JulianMorrison 10y ago

It's a nice operating system but someone needs to port a decent text editor.

mnw21cam 10y ago
Never mind, you can always execute an instance of vim from your emacs shell.
cmrx64 10y ago
spacemacs ;)
- JulianMorrison 10y ago
  To clarify this gnomic reply: http://spacemacs.org/ http://spacemacs.org/ it's sort of a modal emacs with live keybinding display.
  - cmrx64 10y ago
    And it integrates many "vimisms" via evil-mode. I'd been a vim user for a long time but was increasingly dissatisfied as I got deeper into extending it. I've found the opposite of emacs (especially with spacemacs) almost a year into the "conversion". One example that I've come around with was an initial extreme distaste of dynamic binding/non-lexical scope, from a PL standpoint of writing robust software. But it's also super nice for incremental, interactive development.
    - sevensor 10y ago
      Having tried spacemacs, I bounced back to vim. Even though vim is just a tiny bit more responsive, it's enough to make emacs feel laggy. Granted, I use extensions very lightly, so I'm not feeling the qualitative difference of being able to do something in spacemacs that's impossible in vim.
      - johanvts 10y ago

wictory 10y ago

Wouldn't it be better to port emacs to includeOS?

Ericson2314 10y ago
includeOS + guile + guile-emacs

jbicha 10y ago

It's appropriate to call this at least GNU/Linux, right?

peatmoss 10y ago
Yes, though I'd rather this run on OpenBSD's kernel. I'd want all two of my softwares to span the GPL/BSD divide.
- amyjess 10y ago
  Nah, NetBSD. Let's see how many obscure architectures can run Emacs OS!
  - pedrocr 10y ago
    Linux supports more architectures than NetBSD apparently.

throwanem 10y ago

Why Emacs 21.3? That's ancient.

JonathonW 10y ago
Because this was written in 2004 (or earlier; 2004 is the first time archive.org crawled it).

TuringTest 10y ago

So it has come to this

dschiptsov 10y ago

What, no systemd?

treuss 10y ago

I always thought it was the other way around ... ఠ_ఠ

anon4711 10y ago

PJB has become a bit (too little for my taste) of a persona non grata in the common lisp world (which has a large overlap with the emacs world) ever since it was suggested and so far not disproved (names match, nicknames match) that he's the person behind https://twitter.com/ogamita https://twitter.com/ogamita edit: To make it more precise, full names are identical and http://www.informatimago.com/index.html http://www.informatimago.com/index.html links to http://pjb.ogamita.org http://pjb.ogamita.org which uses the same name (ogamita) as that twitter account.

omginternets 10y ago
I dislike holocaust-deniers as much as the next guy, but I find it troubling that one's political opinions should prevent us from considering a person's work in a distinct domain. This is especially true in the present case: I see no evidence that PJB has crossed the Hitler stream with the common lisp stream. People can be smart and respectable in one domain and stupid in another.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  This is especially important to keep in mind because there is no way to shun a person and change their mind on the opinion that led to their shunning. Only engagement does that.
  - anon4711 10y ago
    There are two sides to this and I think they're important to distinguish: If the person in question was wrongfully accused, this could do undeserved damage to him. This would be a misfortune (albeit not a great one given how little activity my comment generated) but I'm currently sufficiently convinced this won't happen that I went ahead and posted the comment. The other matter is rehabilitation. Whether he should be allowed to apologise at some point, say that he made a mistake, and be welcomed back, is something that you cannot decide for everyone. It's up to your personal beliefs, in particular your religion. Everybody needs to determine that for him- or herself, in my opinion.
- 10y ago

Koshkin 10y ago

At least today they could have used yet another kernel for this. That would hurd more.

haylem 10y ago

There's also always this, which I found pretty cool and somewhat functional as well, though it goes beyong the bare "emacs on a kernel" concept: http://www.howardism.org/Technical/Emacs/new-window-manager.html http://www.howardism.org/Technical/Emacs/new-window-manager.... I one had a VM at a workplace where all I had were outdated hardware specs and outdated versions of Windows with few administrative privileges. It helped to retain some sanity. For some time.

gravypod 10y ago

What's that saying? Emacs is a great OS it just needs a good text editor?