6 ms·

Except that history has shown us that theoretically secure but feature deficient systems lose out to less ideologically pure systems that provide what users wan

Except that history has shown us that theoretically secure but feature deficient systems lose out to less ideologically pure systems that provide what users want, leaving the sum total amount of security provided to be less.

kuschku 10y ago
EDIT: Deleted the comment because the of attacks in responses, which I can’t respond to due to "Submitting too fast". @dang: If you want users to be able to actually discuss things, allow them to respond to comments attacking them. This is a retarded system.
- nickik 10y ago
  Basically everything in your comment is wrong. > The prebuilt Signal APK might in fact be completely malicious, you can’t verify anything. https://whispersystems.org/blog/reproducible-android/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/reproducible-android/ This is already more then for all other options. > And as Signal only tries to copy the features WhatsApp and co already have Thats simply not true. WhatsApp does not support gifs, for example. Signal also has some features that others don't. > they’ll get exactly the same security with WhatsApp, Telegram or Threema, and exactly the same features. Telegram is less secure by miles. Threema is less secure by yards. WhatApp is less secure by inches. > "You can create your own federated server" Signal has never claimed that you can "federate" the server. They only mentioned that this is a feature that they might work on in the future. Since they have publicly said that they are not gone do so.
  - kuschku3 10y ago
    > Thats simply not true. WhatsApp does not support gifs, for example. Signal also has some features that others don't. Those are the most minor features. Most competitors have the exact same set of features. > Telegram is less secure by miles. Threema is less secure by yards. WhatApp is less secure by inches. With Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp, and Threema I have to trust their servers, but can verify the client is secure by reading source or reversing it. In neither case can I fork the client to make it more secure, and distribute that fork, while keeping the ability to communicate with users of the official client. > Signal has never claimed that you can "federate" the server. They claimed it would be possible in the future, and I – and many others – only switched to it because of that promise. Because we saw it as something with as much security and customisability as XMPP with OMEMO, but a nicer client. What niche does Signal fill that isn’t already filled by others? It has only minor feature advantages over competitors, and no trust or security advantages. EDIT: Using a second account because otherwise I wouldn’t be able to answer within of a few hours ("You are submitting too fast"...), and by then this discussion would be over.
  - jhasse 10y ago
    > Telegram is less secure by miles. Threema is less secure by yards. WhatApp is less secure by inches. Depends. For me closed-source is a no-go for security, that's why IMHO Signal (open client and server) > Telegram (open client) > Threema (open NaCl lib) > WhatsApp
- heartsucker 10y ago
  > you can’t compile your own client from source According to the docs in the git repo, you can do a `./gradlew build` and there you have it. > you can’t verify anything They have docs on reproducible builds[0]. Anyway, I'd say Signal does have more security than WhatsApp because I trust OWS more than I trust WhatsApp/Facebook. [0] https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reproducible-Builds https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reprod...
- lorenzhs 10y ago
  You keep repeating untrue claims in every thread about Signal, despite having been proven wrong before. At this point, I'll just have to assume that you're not interested in having a factual discussion. See, for example, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12689390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12689390 and its descendant posts.
  - kuschku3 10y ago
    Ah? Which of the claims is untrue then? Moxie originally said federation and forked clients would be possible in the future. Also, Signal does allow you the same rights for the client that WhatsApp does – you can take it apart, modify it for yourself, but you can’t distribute the modification while still having it connect to the same servers as the official one. Please tell me which of my claims is wrong. EDIT: Using a second account because otherwise I wouldn’t be able to answer within of a few hours, and by then this discussion would be over.
  - kuschku4 10y ago
    Ah? Which of the claims is untrue then? Moxie originally said federation and forked clients would be possible in the future. Also, Signal does allow you the same rights for the client that WhatsApp does – you can take it apart, modify it for yourself, but you can’t distribute the modification while still having it connect to the same servers as the official one. Please tell me which of my claims is wrong. EDIT: Can the "you are submitting too fast" at least not apply to answering children of own comments? Otherwise it ends up with attacks and claims that one can’t respond to.
uola 10y ago
History shows us that you can't compete by being a lesser version of something else. There's nothing wrong with trying to make the application more attractive, but at the same time trying to shoehorn in features rather than doing things where you have an advantage is less likely to be meaningful.
- brainfire 10y ago
  Surely missing features would make it the "lesser version of something else."
  - uola 10y ago
    A feature like this doesn't really matter in the context of competing with mainstream messaging services because their value is to a large extent in things like brand and network effect. The notion that you're just one feature away from mainstream adaptation is often a misconception. In reality there's limited potential in living in the shadow of something else.
    - uola 10y ago
      It would be more interesting if people could reply why they disagree. I'm not the first one to come to this conclusion, hemlis is a public example. You simply can't compete with large companies several years after the fact without differentiating.
    - myowncrapulence 10y ago
      I absolutely agree. Instagram/Facebook/Soundcloud have lost my interest as they've added extra features which just clutter the UI and distract from the purpose you were using the site in the first place. If your original product isn't working. Maybe try being a different company.

kuschku 10y ago

EDIT: Deleted the comment because the of attacks in responses, which I can’t respond to due to "Submitting too fast". @dang: If you want users to be able to actually discuss things, allow them to respond to comments attacking them. This is a retarded system.

nickik 10y ago
Basically everything in your comment is wrong. > The prebuilt Signal APK might in fact be completely malicious, you can’t verify anything. https://whispersystems.org/blog/reproducible-android/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/reproducible-android/ This is already more then for all other options. > And as Signal only tries to copy the features WhatsApp and co already have Thats simply not true. WhatsApp does not support gifs, for example. Signal also has some features that others don't. > they’ll get exactly the same security with WhatsApp, Telegram or Threema, and exactly the same features. Telegram is less secure by miles. Threema is less secure by yards. WhatApp is less secure by inches. > "You can create your own federated server" Signal has never claimed that you can "federate" the server. They only mentioned that this is a feature that they might work on in the future. Since they have publicly said that they are not gone do so.
- kuschku3 10y ago
  > Thats simply not true. WhatsApp does not support gifs, for example. Signal also has some features that others don't. Those are the most minor features. Most competitors have the exact same set of features. > Telegram is less secure by miles. Threema is less secure by yards. WhatApp is less secure by inches. With Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp, and Threema I have to trust their servers, but can verify the client is secure by reading source or reversing it. In neither case can I fork the client to make it more secure, and distribute that fork, while keeping the ability to communicate with users of the official client. > Signal has never claimed that you can "federate" the server. They claimed it would be possible in the future, and I – and many others – only switched to it because of that promise. Because we saw it as something with as much security and customisability as XMPP with OMEMO, but a nicer client. What niche does Signal fill that isn’t already filled by others? It has only minor feature advantages over competitors, and no trust or security advantages. EDIT: Using a second account because otherwise I wouldn’t be able to answer within of a few hours ("You are submitting too fast"...), and by then this discussion would be over.
- jhasse 10y ago
  > Telegram is less secure by miles. Threema is less secure by yards. WhatApp is less secure by inches. Depends. For me closed-source is a no-go for security, that's why IMHO Signal (open client and server) > Telegram (open client) > Threema (open NaCl lib) > WhatsApp
heartsucker 10y ago
> you can’t compile your own client from source According to the docs in the git repo, you can do a `./gradlew build` and there you have it. > you can’t verify anything They have docs on reproducible builds[0]. Anyway, I'd say Signal does have more security than WhatsApp because I trust OWS more than I trust WhatsApp/Facebook. [0] https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reproducible-Builds https://github.com/WhisperSystems/Signal-Android/wiki/Reprod...
lorenzhs 10y ago
You keep repeating untrue claims in every thread about Signal, despite having been proven wrong before. At this point, I'll just have to assume that you're not interested in having a factual discussion. See, for example, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12689390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12689390 and its descendant posts.
- kuschku3 10y ago
  Ah? Which of the claims is untrue then? Moxie originally said federation and forked clients would be possible in the future. Also, Signal does allow you the same rights for the client that WhatsApp does – you can take it apart, modify it for yourself, but you can’t distribute the modification while still having it connect to the same servers as the official one. Please tell me which of my claims is wrong. EDIT: Using a second account because otherwise I wouldn’t be able to answer within of a few hours, and by then this discussion would be over.
- kuschku4 10y ago
  Ah? Which of the claims is untrue then? Moxie originally said federation and forked clients would be possible in the future. Also, Signal does allow you the same rights for the client that WhatsApp does – you can take it apart, modify it for yourself, but you can’t distribute the modification while still having it connect to the same servers as the official one. Please tell me which of my claims is wrong. EDIT: Can the "you are submitting too fast" at least not apply to answering children of own comments? Otherwise it ends up with attacks and claims that one can’t respond to.

uola 10y ago

History shows us that you can't compete by being a lesser version of something else. There's nothing wrong with trying to make the application more attractive, but at the same time trying to shoehorn in features rather than doing things where you have an advantage is less likely to be meaningful.

brainfire 10y ago
Surely missing features would make it the "lesser version of something else."
- uola 10y ago
  A feature like this doesn't really matter in the context of competing with mainstream messaging services because their value is to a large extent in things like brand and network effect. The notion that you're just one feature away from mainstream adaptation is often a misconception. In reality there's limited potential in living in the shadow of something else.
  - uola 10y ago
    It would be more interesting if people could reply why they disagree. I'm not the first one to come to this conclusion, hemlis is a public example. You simply can't compete with large companies several years after the fact without differentiating.
  - myowncrapulence 10y ago
    I absolutely agree. Instagram/Facebook/Soundcloud have lost my interest as they've added extra features which just clutter the UI and distract from the purpose you were using the site in the first place. If your original product isn't working. Maybe try being a different company.