9 ms·

‘How Much Suffering Can You Take?’

86 points by wallflower 10y ago

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
hprotagonist 10y ago
In my experience, there's a difference between "how much suffering are you willing to take", and "how much suffering can you take". This race is interesting because participants can stop whenever they want to -- and they know it. So there's a meta-contest happening for each participant. I have, on very long bicycle rides, found myself spending a lot of mental energy on knowing that I could stop any time. This is not always true, even in recreational activities or endurance sports. I have been on climbs where there is no reasonable option for retreat and getting off the rock wall is actually a worse option than finishing the climb. Similarly, I've been on backpacking trips where weather and terrain dictate that the only reasonable course of action is to (for example) get off that ridge _now_. In situations where I don't have the option of choice, I find I'm capable of a lot more.
- nugget 10y ago
  A friend from my Navy days told me the only way he survived BUD/S hell week was to mentally accept that he would either pass the course or freeze to death in the water.
  - jacobolus 10y ago
    For anyone else curious, BUD/S = Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL, part of the US Navy’s special forces training. Considering the crazy life-threatening things special forces soldiers might be commanded to do in a real mission, weeding out anyone who doesn’t think like your friend is likely one of the main goals.
    - overcast 10y ago
      Actually SEAL's are Special Operations, US Army has the Special Forces designation. They are completely different in the context of the military.
      - jacobolus 10y ago
        Wikipedia: Special forces and special operations forces are military units trained to conduct special operations.[1][2][3] NATO defines special operations as "military activities conducted by specially designated, organized, trained, and equipped forces, manned with selected personnel, using unconventional tactics, techniques, and modes of employment".[4][1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_special_forces_units#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_special_force... > They are completely different From what I can tell “special operations” and “special forces” mean the same thing, as far as lay definitions of the generic terms are concerned. Here’s what Collins Dictionary says: “special forces: élite, highly trained military forces, specially selected to work on difficult missions”
        overcast 10y ago
        I'm just telling you how the military designates the branches.
        rhizome 10y ago
        Sure, and it's useful as far as it goes (I didn't know precisely), but this isn't the military.
        mr_overalls 10y ago
        overcast is correct. "Special Forces", in the context of US military units, refers specifically to the Army's Green Berets. "Special Operations" is an umbrella term describing the high-trained, unconventional soldiers who serve in all branches of our military. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_(United_States_Army) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_(United_States_...
  - Buttons840 10y ago
    Since we're talking about Navy Seals on a website about startups and business, I have to recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Ownership-U-S-Navy-SEALs/dp/1250067057/ https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Ownership-U-S-Navy-SEALs/dp/1...
  - remarkEon 10y ago
    When I went through Ranger School there was a similar mentality. You learn pretty quickly about how far you can physically push yourself, but the real true test was how much you could endure mentally. Sleep deprivation combined with a low calorie diet and extremely taxing physical tasks, I would say, ends up attacking your mental abilities in a way it's difficult to prepare for. I was probably in the best shape of my life when I started (and the absolute worst when I graduated) but the fact that you could quit at any time meant that you had to dig elsewhere for motivation. I think more importantly than anything you learn about your own physiology or mental dedication, you learn how to motivate and lead people who are as broken or more so than yourself. So when people ask "why is it necessary to destroy people like this" that's why.
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      >I think more importantly than anything you learn about your own physiology or mental dedication, you learn how to motivate and lead people who are as broken or more so than yourself. So when people ask "why is it necessary to destroy people like this" that's why. Yes, because everyone knows that Suffering Makes Stronk. In fact, permanent damage to your physiology is nothing if you're stronk, and there's certainly no advantage to actually keeping healthy your whole life in performing difficult mental and physical tasks. /s
      - scott_s 10y ago
        I think a charitable read of remarkEon's comment assumes he meant in the context of combat training, and not necessarily in preparation for life in general.
        eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        I legitimately don't think that permanently injuring people makes them more ready for combat.
        scott_s 10y ago
- jhayward 10y ago
  One of the best things I learned from my bike racing days was how to handle "you can quit any time". Once you accept something like "this is the part that sucks, if you just keep pedaling it will at some point not suck" it all gets better. In other words surrender to the moment, quit worrying about it, and just keep riding. Lots of life is like that.
  - b_emery 10y ago
    This comes up a lot in the accounts of navy seal training that I've read. The strategy is to just make it through the next few moments without letting your mind go to the future pain and suffering.
    - kelvin0 10y ago
      I would like to read about that, can you suggest any links or books?
      - scott_s 10y ago
        The book "Lone Survivor" talks a lot about the author's experiences during SEAL training.
        b_emery 10y ago
        Yes that one, and also "the heart and the fist" by Eric Greitens. Maybe the biography of Chris Kyle also, though I can remember for sure.
  - zimpenfish 10y ago
    Same with marathons - my first (solo, unsupported, few escape points) was a lot "easier" to get through than the subsequent non-solo/supported/lapped ones purely because I just didn't have the (easy) option to quit.
- spiderfarmer 10y ago
  I participated in the Red Bull Dutch Extreme, a 3 day event. The winner of that event told the press that he's always able to continue after breaking down, simply because he wouldn't accept that he reached his limit. But, while that might sound inspiring and all, I personally found out that if you don't drink enough during events like that, your limits suddenly become very clear.
  - taneq 10y ago
    I hate the "limits are all in your mind" mentality. Sure, maybe the limits in many peoples' minds kick in before their physical limits. Those limits are there for a reason, though - hitting physical limits has (often serious) physical consequences. In the extreme case you start to damage muscles, ligaments, organs. Your body is actually killing itself. It's like when people talk about "giving 110%" on a racetrack. You know how to spot the ones giving 110%? They've already crashed, because no amount of positive attitude is going to increase your tyres' coefficient of friction.
    - hprotagonist 10y ago
      minds have physical limits, too.
- baddox 10y ago
  That's one thing I love about longer backpacking trips. I did the John Muir Trail this summer, with 18 days available. There are only a few feasible bailout opportunities, and virtually none in the last half (going southbound). I like the feeling that after a day or two you are essentially fully committed. Of course there are options in the case of injury or other emergency, but if you're just worn out and homesick (which definitely happened) your best option is to just keep chugging along. We ended up taking a full unplanned rest day in the middle, and still finished a day early.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  That's an excellent point. As one piece of anecdotal, I just got back this morning from three days spent hiking in the Grand Canyon. Despite taking twice as long and being on tired legs, the hike up on the third day was less mentally taxing than the hike down on the first day. Once you're in the Canyon you're fully committed, whereas when you're going down you can still bail for most of the way and end up with less total exertion.
  - petertodd 10y ago
    I do cave exploration, and it can be an even more insidious version of that: in a vertical cave you rappel down to the bottom - a task that can require almost no exertion at all in some caves. Then once you turn around its vertical climbing all the way to the top, occasionally in very cold and wet conditions where stopping for any significant length of time can lead to hypothermia and death faster then you'd be rescued. Of course, good cavers know all this and take their limits into account! So it doesn't have to be as dangerous as it sounds, but God help you if you go in without knowing this. And sure enough, I usually find the most mentally hard part of caving to be going in, rather than coming out.
    - CydeWeys 10y ago
      The rule in the Grand Canyon is that each mile you hike down is 1.5-2X harder to hike back up, so you should turn back once you've given at most 33-40% of your available effort (or make plans to spend the night at the bottom). It sounds like that multiplier is way higher still in caving. 10X? More?
      - petertodd 10y ago
        It depends a _lot_ on the cave - some caves are pure horizontal crawling with equal effort in and out - but the worst case is pure rappels where you may literally do nothing more than lightly hold onto the brake end of the rope for an hour while you descend, followed by a grueling climb straight up. On top of that, the efficiency of ascending gear varies wildly: if you use an inappropriate setup - quite common with climbers who have no prior experience caving - you may be working 10x or more harder than someone with an appropriate setup. Basically the problem here, is the typical way climbers climb a rope is only suitable for very short climbs of 30-40ft, because you end up applying the force at a big angle relative to the rope; rather than pushing vertically up you wastefully push sideways. The vastly more efficient setups/equipment that cavers use allows you to push almost directly up while climbing up the rope.
kough 10y ago
Seems comparable to my undergrad experience /s
- curiousgal 10y ago
  ditto! French CPGE for me though.
revelation 10y ago
Ah yes, more mainstream media demonizing exercise by highlighting these events and the idiots who enter into them without due preparation. What's on the NYT menu for tomorrow?
- recursive 10y ago
  There's no amount of preparation a human can do that will make 5 ironmans in 5 days easier than this.
  - revelation 10y ago
    At least one of the participants could have evidently vastly improved his experience by learning how to shift gears on a bicycle. And no, endurance events like these are all about preparation and hours put in. Your yearly training time should be vastly beyond the 5 days here.
    - LeifCarrotson 10y ago
      > learning how to shift gears on a bicycle. I presume you're quoting from the caption: > Jerome Libecki spent more than 300 miles of the bike leg in the wrong gear. He had slipped into the Quintuple Anvil field despite having never competed in a triathlon before. I am confident that the athlete knew how to shift gears on a bicycle. Check his bio here: https://www.crowdrise.com/WineWomenShoes/fundraiser/jerrylibecki https://www.crowdrise.com/WineWomenShoes/fundraiser/jerrylib.... It describes an experienced athlete, and it's entirely possible that in the many running races and biking races, he'd never done a tri. However, a tri bike or road bike does not have an indication of what gear you're in. You check it at the start and then mentally keep track, or look down between your legs or around your hips - and it's difficult on a modern 10-speed cassette to look behind you and know if you're in 5 or 6. You're shifting based on perceived effort, which is obviously distorted after a few hours on the bike. So after the race you might look at your cadence and speed records from your bike computer and realize you went faster or slower than you wanted to.
      - 10y ago
bertiewhykovich 10y ago
My immediate thought was "this is pathological" -- some artifact of modern malaise. But on further thought it doesn't seem all that different from the sort of punishing rituals that people have undertaken for the majority of human history: mortification of the flesh is a consistent theme. However, these rituals have almost always been spiritual in nature, with the goal seemingly transcendence (of the flesh, the self, what have you). It's not entirely clear that this parallel holds for the event described in the article -- but maybe I'm missing the point. Is it, ultimately, about transcending those limitations that "hold the self back"? Is the spiritual height being reached really just "your best self"?
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 10y ago
  > Is it, ultimately, about transcending those limitations that "hold the self back"? Is the spiritual height being reached really just "your best self"? I suppose that's the purpose of life too.
  - bertiewhykovich 10y ago
    Well, that's certainly the ethos of American modernity -- but there seems (to me, at least) to be little reason to believe that it's actually true. And, even if we were to assume the difficult-to-justify proposition that the purpose of life is to be your best self, it's hard to buy that this sort of behavior actually brings you closer to that goal -- any more than the Skoptsy were actually better able to commune with God after castration. (It probably sure felt like it worked at the time, though.)
    - 0xdeadbeefbabe 10y ago
      > this sort of behavior Resembles getting ready to die.
    - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
      >the purpose of life is to be your best self That is a tautology if I've ever seen one. "Best" is meaningless without some preexisting standard.
clifanatic 10y ago
Oh, from the title, I thought it was going to be about patch releases...
js2 10y ago
Pete Kostelnick just ran across the US in 42 days breaking the prior record by 3 days. I guarantee you he tolerated a lot of suffering: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/26/well/move/how-to-run-across-the-country-faster-than-anyone.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/26/well/move/how-to-run-acros... Then there are events like the Badwater 135 and the Vol State which seem surgically designed to inflict suffering: https://ultrasignup.com/register.aspx?did=34762 https://ultrasignup.com/register.aspx?did=34762 Or the Marathon de Sables: http://marathondessables.co.uk/ http://marathondessables.co.uk/ Or how about the 52 day Sri Chinmoy Self-Transcendence 3100 Mile Race in Queens, New York City: http://3100.srichinmoyraces.org/ http://3100.srichinmoyraces.org/ I recently participated in my first 24h foot race, completing 105 miles. Nearly 400 of us running a 1.5 mi loop around a lake for hours on end. Why do we do these things? I had a whole day on my feet to contemplate that question and I never came up with a satisfactory answer. I finally decided there is no why. We do it because it's there. And maybe because we have a bit too much time on our hands. Nonetheless, I find this text from the Vol State link poetic: Many will fail. But, for those who find the steely will and muster the sheer dogged tenacity to overcome the impossible obstacles, and reach the rock on foot, the Vol-State can be a transcendental experience. No words can adequately describe the sense of combined relief and amazement to be experienced at the Rock. No one can explain the regret that this incredible journey has actually come to an end. Former King, Barry Crumrine probably summed up the Vol-State experience as well as it can be put into words: “I found in myself something that I never knew was there.” Suffer well my friends.
- dockd 10y ago
  > Why do we do these things? This sounds terrible, but quite often, it's to say you did. A joke posted in my gym: Q: How do you know someone has run a marathon? A: They'll tell you.
  - js2 10y ago
    There's lots of variations on that joke. People are proud of their accomplishments. I've heard it about people who Crossfit, people who run Boston. I've seen folks with Ironman tattoos. And I'm sure you've seen plenty of 13.1 and 26.2 stickers, and all the triathlon mileages too. Shrug.
module0000 10y ago
This article smacks of hubris. While it's impressive that these everyday people ran, biked, and swam some distance...it can get much worse. The link below is about as "tame" as special operations training gets, and it's not "tame" at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_School
Mz 10y ago
Sorely disappointed. I have a chronic illness. I don't get to sign up for five limited days of torment, prep for it, then be done. Every single day involves trying to just not give up. I hate that people with chronic illness get written up like pathetic losers while people who choose to do stuff like this as a hobby are lauded for it. Wimps, every last one of them.
- b_emery 10y ago
  Indeed. "Growing old is not for sissy's" says my mother-in-law.
- DarkTree 10y ago
  I think the difference is that they are willingly trading suffering for some personal benefit, whereas you don't actively choose to suffer. While that's unfortunate, you are unfairly writing them off because you arbitrarily have to suffer. Sure, it's commendable that you don't give up, but that doesn't negate the testament to the human will that these individuals are going out of their way to test. It seems to me that you believe anyone who doesn't endure a chronic illness is a wimp.. well guess what, some sufferers don't get to choose to live and have to die in front of their friends and illness due to terminal disease. Does that make you a wimp relative to them?
  - Mz 10y ago
    Eh, choosing to live in my case has been an incredibly long, hard journey. I would rather have died. Annoyingly, I was too competent and the beat goes on.
- sndean 10y ago
  > chronic illness get written up like pathetic losers I wonder if "cancer survivor" is simply a spin that's been put on a situation that invokes applause, or if others just respond favorably (emotionally?) to people who have gotten through a difficult time. Not sure if "$illness survivor" works or not. If not, then people really focus on "battling", "fighting", "surviving", "winning", etc.
hughes 10y ago
Am I the only one being taken to a login page when clicking this link? Since when do I need to create a facebook account to read an article on the new york times?
austinl 10y ago
Saw it mentioned below, but if you're interested in this stuff, I'd wholly recommend watching a documentary called "The Barkley Marathons" on Netflix. It's a 100-mile race through the woods in Tennessee, with a 16,500m climb and a time limit of 60 hours. Only 14 people have ever finished. The documentary does a good job of interviewing the participants and the founder to get at what drives people to enter the race. Most believe (myself included) that overcoming truly challenging obstacles is an enriching experience. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkley_Marathons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkley_Marathons
thisrod 10y ago
I think many HNers would enjoy the Australian version of this: http://worldrogainingchamps.com.au/ http://worldrogainingchamps.com.au/ A rogaine only lasts 24 hours—no one has been tempted to organise a longer one. On the other hand, the requirement to keep staggering along a running track is replaced by a stricter one: you need to keep navigating precisely, in the dark, away from tracks, using only map and compass. The need to stay alert and keep thinking makes for a more subtle contest, and in some ways a more interesting one. Then there's the aesthetic part. Instead of a marquee full of used bandages, you get the McDonnell Ranges by moonlight, and the feeling of autonomy that comes when you're running through the middle of nowhere at 3 a.m. with a water bottle, a snakebite bandage and a few muesli bars.
bootload 10y ago
‘How Much Suffering Can You Take?’ State of mind. Turn this question around. Ask yourself "How much suffering can you take to stop others being hurt?" This in my view is a better question to know the answer. Put this way I define it as being able to stick an arm in a fire, hold it there until the job is done. If you think about this way, you realise the real challenge is mental than physical.

86 points by wallflower 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

In my experience, there's a difference between "how much suffering are you willing to take", and "how much suffering can you take". This race is interesting because participants can stop whenever they want to -- and they know it. So there's a meta-contest happening for each participant. I have, on very long bicycle rides, found myself spending a lot of mental energy on knowing that I could stop any time. This is not always true, even in recreational activities or endurance sports. I have been on climbs where there is no reasonable option for retreat and getting off the rock wall is actually a worse option than finishing the climb. Similarly, I've been on backpacking trips where weather and terrain dictate that the only reasonable course of action is to (for example) get off that ridge _now_. In situations where I don't have the option of choice, I find I'm capable of a lot more.

nugget 10y ago
A friend from my Navy days told me the only way he survived BUD/S hell week was to mentally accept that he would either pass the course or freeze to death in the water.
- jacobolus 10y ago
  For anyone else curious, BUD/S = Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL, part of the US Navy’s special forces training. Considering the crazy life-threatening things special forces soldiers might be commanded to do in a real mission, weeding out anyone who doesn’t think like your friend is likely one of the main goals.
  - overcast 10y ago
    Actually SEAL's are Special Operations, US Army has the Special Forces designation. They are completely different in the context of the military.
    - jacobolus 10y ago
      Wikipedia: Special forces and special operations forces are military units trained to conduct special operations.[1][2][3] NATO defines special operations as "military activities conducted by specially designated, organized, trained, and equipped forces, manned with selected personnel, using unconventional tactics, techniques, and modes of employment".[4][1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_special_forces_units#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_special_force... > They are completely different From what I can tell “special operations” and “special forces” mean the same thing, as far as lay definitions of the generic terms are concerned. Here’s what Collins Dictionary says: “special forces: élite, highly trained military forces, specially selected to work on difficult missions”
      - overcast 10y ago
        I'm just telling you how the military designates the branches.
        rhizome 10y ago
        Sure, and it's useful as far as it goes (I didn't know precisely), but this isn't the military.
      - mr_overalls 10y ago
        overcast is correct. "Special Forces", in the context of US military units, refers specifically to the Army's Green Berets. "Special Operations" is an umbrella term describing the high-trained, unconventional soldiers who serve in all branches of our military. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_(United_States_Army) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_(United_States_...
- Buttons840 10y ago
  Since we're talking about Navy Seals on a website about startups and business, I have to recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Ownership-U-S-Navy-SEALs/dp/1250067057/ https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Ownership-U-S-Navy-SEALs/dp/1...
- remarkEon 10y ago
  When I went through Ranger School there was a similar mentality. You learn pretty quickly about how far you can physically push yourself, but the real true test was how much you could endure mentally. Sleep deprivation combined with a low calorie diet and extremely taxing physical tasks, I would say, ends up attacking your mental abilities in a way it's difficult to prepare for. I was probably in the best shape of my life when I started (and the absolute worst when I graduated) but the fact that you could quit at any time meant that you had to dig elsewhere for motivation. I think more importantly than anything you learn about your own physiology or mental dedication, you learn how to motivate and lead people who are as broken or more so than yourself. So when people ask "why is it necessary to destroy people like this" that's why.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >I think more importantly than anything you learn about your own physiology or mental dedication, you learn how to motivate and lead people who are as broken or more so than yourself. So when people ask "why is it necessary to destroy people like this" that's why. Yes, because everyone knows that Suffering Makes Stronk. In fact, permanent damage to your physiology is nothing if you're stronk, and there's certainly no advantage to actually keeping healthy your whole life in performing difficult mental and physical tasks. /s
    - scott_s 10y ago
      I think a charitable read of remarkEon's comment assumes he meant in the context of combat training, and not necessarily in preparation for life in general.
      - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
        I legitimately don't think that permanently injuring people makes them more ready for combat.
        scott_s 10y ago
jhayward 10y ago
One of the best things I learned from my bike racing days was how to handle "you can quit any time". Once you accept something like "this is the part that sucks, if you just keep pedaling it will at some point not suck" it all gets better. In other words surrender to the moment, quit worrying about it, and just keep riding. Lots of life is like that.
- b_emery 10y ago
  This comes up a lot in the accounts of navy seal training that I've read. The strategy is to just make it through the next few moments without letting your mind go to the future pain and suffering.
  - kelvin0 10y ago
    I would like to read about that, can you suggest any links or books?
    - scott_s 10y ago
      The book "Lone Survivor" talks a lot about the author's experiences during SEAL training.
      - b_emery 10y ago
        Yes that one, and also "the heart and the fist" by Eric Greitens. Maybe the biography of Chris Kyle also, though I can remember for sure.
- zimpenfish 10y ago
  Same with marathons - my first (solo, unsupported, few escape points) was a lot "easier" to get through than the subsequent non-solo/supported/lapped ones purely because I just didn't have the (easy) option to quit.
spiderfarmer 10y ago
I participated in the Red Bull Dutch Extreme, a 3 day event. The winner of that event told the press that he's always able to continue after breaking down, simply because he wouldn't accept that he reached his limit. But, while that might sound inspiring and all, I personally found out that if you don't drink enough during events like that, your limits suddenly become very clear.
- taneq 10y ago
  I hate the "limits are all in your mind" mentality. Sure, maybe the limits in many peoples' minds kick in before their physical limits. Those limits are there for a reason, though - hitting physical limits has (often serious) physical consequences. In the extreme case you start to damage muscles, ligaments, organs. Your body is actually killing itself. It's like when people talk about "giving 110%" on a racetrack. You know how to spot the ones giving 110%? They've already crashed, because no amount of positive attitude is going to increase your tyres' coefficient of friction.
  - hprotagonist 10y ago
    minds have physical limits, too.
baddox 10y ago
That's one thing I love about longer backpacking trips. I did the John Muir Trail this summer, with 18 days available. There are only a few feasible bailout opportunities, and virtually none in the last half (going southbound). I like the feeling that after a day or two you are essentially fully committed. Of course there are options in the case of injury or other emergency, but if you're just worn out and homesick (which definitely happened) your best option is to just keep chugging along. We ended up taking a full unplanned rest day in the middle, and still finished a day early.
CydeWeys 10y ago
That's an excellent point. As one piece of anecdotal, I just got back this morning from three days spent hiking in the Grand Canyon. Despite taking twice as long and being on tired legs, the hike up on the third day was less mentally taxing than the hike down on the first day. Once you're in the Canyon you're fully committed, whereas when you're going down you can still bail for most of the way and end up with less total exertion.
- petertodd 10y ago
  I do cave exploration, and it can be an even more insidious version of that: in a vertical cave you rappel down to the bottom - a task that can require almost no exertion at all in some caves. Then once you turn around its vertical climbing all the way to the top, occasionally in very cold and wet conditions where stopping for any significant length of time can lead to hypothermia and death faster then you'd be rescued. Of course, good cavers know all this and take their limits into account! So it doesn't have to be as dangerous as it sounds, but God help you if you go in without knowing this. And sure enough, I usually find the most mentally hard part of caving to be going in, rather than coming out.
  - CydeWeys 10y ago
    The rule in the Grand Canyon is that each mile you hike down is 1.5-2X harder to hike back up, so you should turn back once you've given at most 33-40% of your available effort (or make plans to spend the night at the bottom). It sounds like that multiplier is way higher still in caving. 10X? More?
    - petertodd 10y ago
      It depends a _lot_ on the cave - some caves are pure horizontal crawling with equal effort in and out - but the worst case is pure rappels where you may literally do nothing more than lightly hold onto the brake end of the rope for an hour while you descend, followed by a grueling climb straight up. On top of that, the efficiency of ascending gear varies wildly: if you use an inappropriate setup - quite common with climbers who have no prior experience caving - you may be working 10x or more harder than someone with an appropriate setup. Basically the problem here, is the typical way climbers climb a rope is only suitable for very short climbs of 30-40ft, because you end up applying the force at a big angle relative to the rope; rather than pushing vertically up you wastefully push sideways. The vastly more efficient setups/equipment that cavers use allows you to push almost directly up while climbing up the rope.

kough 10y ago

Seems comparable to my undergrad experience /s

curiousgal 10y ago
ditto! French CPGE for me though.

revelation 10y ago

Ah yes, more mainstream media demonizing exercise by highlighting these events and the idiots who enter into them without due preparation. What's on the NYT menu for tomorrow?

recursive 10y ago
There's no amount of preparation a human can do that will make 5 ironmans in 5 days easier than this.
- revelation 10y ago
  At least one of the participants could have evidently vastly improved his experience by learning how to shift gears on a bicycle. And no, endurance events like these are all about preparation and hours put in. Your yearly training time should be vastly beyond the 5 days here.
  - LeifCarrotson 10y ago
    > learning how to shift gears on a bicycle. I presume you're quoting from the caption: > Jerome Libecki spent more than 300 miles of the bike leg in the wrong gear. He had slipped into the Quintuple Anvil field despite having never competed in a triathlon before. I am confident that the athlete knew how to shift gears on a bicycle. Check his bio here: https://www.crowdrise.com/WineWomenShoes/fundraiser/jerrylibecki https://www.crowdrise.com/WineWomenShoes/fundraiser/jerrylib.... It describes an experienced athlete, and it's entirely possible that in the many running races and biking races, he'd never done a tri. However, a tri bike or road bike does not have an indication of what gear you're in. You check it at the start and then mentally keep track, or look down between your legs or around your hips - and it's difficult on a modern 10-speed cassette to look behind you and know if you're in 5 or 6. You're shifting based on perceived effort, which is obviously distorted after a few hours on the bike. So after the race you might look at your cadence and speed records from your bike computer and realize you went faster or slower than you wanted to.
    - 10y ago

bertiewhykovich 10y ago

My immediate thought was "this is pathological" -- some artifact of modern malaise. But on further thought it doesn't seem all that different from the sort of punishing rituals that people have undertaken for the majority of human history: mortification of the flesh is a consistent theme. However, these rituals have almost always been spiritual in nature, with the goal seemingly transcendence (of the flesh, the self, what have you). It's not entirely clear that this parallel holds for the event described in the article -- but maybe I'm missing the point. Is it, ultimately, about transcending those limitations that "hold the self back"? Is the spiritual height being reached really just "your best self"?

0xdeadbeefbabe 10y ago
> Is it, ultimately, about transcending those limitations that "hold the self back"? Is the spiritual height being reached really just "your best self"? I suppose that's the purpose of life too.
- bertiewhykovich 10y ago
  Well, that's certainly the ethos of American modernity -- but there seems (to me, at least) to be little reason to believe that it's actually true. And, even if we were to assume the difficult-to-justify proposition that the purpose of life is to be your best self, it's hard to buy that this sort of behavior actually brings you closer to that goal -- any more than the Skoptsy were actually better able to commune with God after castration. (It probably sure felt like it worked at the time, though.)
  - 0xdeadbeefbabe 10y ago
    > this sort of behavior Resembles getting ready to die.
  - eli_gottlieb 10y ago
    >the purpose of life is to be your best self That is a tautology if I've ever seen one. "Best" is meaningless without some preexisting standard.

clifanatic 10y ago

Oh, from the title, I thought it was going to be about patch releases...

js2 10y ago

Pete Kostelnick just ran across the US in 42 days breaking the prior record by 3 days. I guarantee you he tolerated a lot of suffering: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/26/well/move/how-to-run-across-the-country-faster-than-anyone.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/26/well/move/how-to-run-acros... Then there are events like the Badwater 135 and the Vol State which seem surgically designed to inflict suffering: https://ultrasignup.com/register.aspx?did=34762 https://ultrasignup.com/register.aspx?did=34762 Or the Marathon de Sables: http://marathondessables.co.uk/ http://marathondessables.co.uk/ Or how about the 52 day Sri Chinmoy Self-Transcendence 3100 Mile Race in Queens, New York City: http://3100.srichinmoyraces.org/ http://3100.srichinmoyraces.org/ I recently participated in my first 24h foot race, completing 105 miles. Nearly 400 of us running a 1.5 mi loop around a lake for hours on end. Why do we do these things? I had a whole day on my feet to contemplate that question and I never came up with a satisfactory answer. I finally decided there is no why. We do it because it's there. And maybe because we have a bit too much time on our hands. Nonetheless, I find this text from the Vol State link poetic: Many will fail. But, for those who find the steely will and muster the sheer dogged tenacity to overcome the impossible obstacles, and reach the rock on foot, the Vol-State can be a transcendental experience. No words can adequately describe the sense of combined relief and amazement to be experienced at the Rock. No one can explain the regret that this incredible journey has actually come to an end. Former King, Barry Crumrine probably summed up the Vol-State experience as well as it can be put into words: “I found in myself something that I never knew was there.” Suffer well my friends.

dockd 10y ago
> Why do we do these things? This sounds terrible, but quite often, it's to say you did. A joke posted in my gym: Q: How do you know someone has run a marathon? A: They'll tell you.
- js2 10y ago
  There's lots of variations on that joke. People are proud of their accomplishments. I've heard it about people who Crossfit, people who run Boston. I've seen folks with Ironman tattoos. And I'm sure you've seen plenty of 13.1 and 26.2 stickers, and all the triathlon mileages too. Shrug.

module0000 10y ago

This article smacks of hubris. While it's impressive that these everyday people ran, biked, and swam some distance...it can get much worse. The link below is about as "tame" as special operations training gets, and it's not "tame" at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_School https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_School

Mz 10y ago

Sorely disappointed. I have a chronic illness. I don't get to sign up for five limited days of torment, prep for it, then be done. Every single day involves trying to just not give up. I hate that people with chronic illness get written up like pathetic losers while people who choose to do stuff like this as a hobby are lauded for it. Wimps, every last one of them.

b_emery 10y ago
Indeed. "Growing old is not for sissy's" says my mother-in-law.
DarkTree 10y ago
I think the difference is that they are willingly trading suffering for some personal benefit, whereas you don't actively choose to suffer. While that's unfortunate, you are unfairly writing them off because you arbitrarily have to suffer. Sure, it's commendable that you don't give up, but that doesn't negate the testament to the human will that these individuals are going out of their way to test. It seems to me that you believe anyone who doesn't endure a chronic illness is a wimp.. well guess what, some sufferers don't get to choose to live and have to die in front of their friends and illness due to terminal disease. Does that make you a wimp relative to them?
- Mz 10y ago
  Eh, choosing to live in my case has been an incredibly long, hard journey. I would rather have died. Annoyingly, I was too competent and the beat goes on.
sndean 10y ago
> chronic illness get written up like pathetic losers I wonder if "cancer survivor" is simply a spin that's been put on a situation that invokes applause, or if others just respond favorably (emotionally?) to people who have gotten through a difficult time. Not sure if "$illness survivor" works or not. If not, then people really focus on "battling", "fighting", "surviving", "winning", etc.

hughes 10y ago

Am I the only one being taken to a login page when clicking this link? Since when do I need to create a facebook account to read an article on the new york times?

austinl 10y ago

Saw it mentioned below, but if you're interested in this stuff, I'd wholly recommend watching a documentary called "The Barkley Marathons" on Netflix. It's a 100-mile race through the woods in Tennessee, with a 16,500m climb and a time limit of 60 hours. Only 14 people have ever finished. The documentary does a good job of interviewing the participants and the founder to get at what drives people to enter the race. Most believe (myself included) that overcoming truly challenging obstacles is an enriching experience. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkley_Marathons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barkley_Marathons

thisrod 10y ago

I think many HNers would enjoy the Australian version of this: http://worldrogainingchamps.com.au/ http://worldrogainingchamps.com.au/ A rogaine only lasts 24 hours—no one has been tempted to organise a longer one. On the other hand, the requirement to keep staggering along a running track is replaced by a stricter one: you need to keep navigating precisely, in the dark, away from tracks, using only map and compass. The need to stay alert and keep thinking makes for a more subtle contest, and in some ways a more interesting one. Then there's the aesthetic part. Instead of a marquee full of used bandages, you get the McDonnell Ranges by moonlight, and the feeling of autonomy that comes when you're running through the middle of nowhere at 3 a.m. with a water bottle, a snakebite bandage and a few muesli bars.

bootload 10y ago

‘How Much Suffering Can You Take?’ State of mind. Turn this question around. Ask yourself "How much suffering can you take to stop others being hurt?" This in my view is a better question to know the answer. Put this way I define it as being able to stick an arm in a fire, hold it there until the job is done. If you think about this way, you realise the real challenge is mental than physical.