3 ms·

The only real problem in Houston is that it's taken too long to get mass transit going. The lack of zoning isn't really a problem. It's that it takes forever

The only real problem in Houston is that it's taken too long to get mass transit going. The lack of zoning isn't really a problem. It's that it takes forever to do anything to ease traffic. I wish we'd do like Brazil and get BRT systems so that they could be built progressively and start reaping benefits immediately. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit

ska 10y ago
The lack of zoning is a massive problem. That combined with the cheap surrounding land is why there are essentially no livable neighborhoods in Houston in the sense that Jacobs was talking about. Houston is a great example of what you get with unbridled suburban sprawl. Much of the city isn't dense enough to justify real mass transit, which is part of the problem you are seeing. It's a great example of how to keep land prices low and automobile miles high, but not much else from a city planning point of view.
- msandford 10y ago
  The development is happening outside of the city limits. Which means that no amount of zoning in the already annexed land could or would stop developers from doing things in the unannexed land. In order for your assertion that zoning is the problem to hold water, the city of Houston would have to annex faster than the developers popped out new subdivisions, which definitely isn't happening. I agree that there's a distinct lack of planning in Houston which is a problem. But those aren't necessarily the same thing. Further there are good local neighborhoods popping up all over, especially wherever the light rail is going. All without any zoning whatsoever.
  - ska 10y ago
    I haven't lived there for a while , so perhaps good neighbourhoods are popping up, I hope so. They certainly weren't therr 8 or so years ago. I think you are missing the degree to which zoning is needed as a tool for effective planning.
    - msandford 10y ago
      > I think you are missing the degree to which zoning is needed as a tool for effective planning. Okay, so enlighten me! I totally understand how zoning and planning theoretically go hand-in-hand so that you build stuff near transit, and have transit near stuff, and the like. But Houston's problem is that all the first-round development happens outside city limits. Meaning that the overarching plan (if there was one) would still not be able to influence in any way what's happening in places where the city has no jurisdiction. So how would zoning inside the city limits do anything to influence people building outside city limits?
      - ska 10y ago
        Building outside the city limits only works be use of the infrastructure projects to support it, so you are right in that this isn't simply a zoning issue (unless they did something like Toronto's green belt. Which is effectively zoning writ large). But that isn't by any means the only problem. People buy on the outer rim because there is very little advantage to buying anywhere else. This, in part because there aren't cohesive areas, and that has more to do with zoning. In most cities the size of Houston you'll have a denser core with some strong arguments for living there, and these are strengthened by city planning, which zoning is part of. Houston has very, very little of that. Why buy a place in the loop if I still have to get in my car for most things I need or places to be? Part of the problem is lack of planning, and part of the reason is that lack of zoning allows redevelopment without much (any?) thought about impact. I'm not suggesting zoning is at all the only issue, but it is part of why Houston is such a mess as a city in many ways. While I agree with another respondent that zoning can be part of the problem too, I disagree that it is inherent. It's a tool for planning, and can be used well or poorly.
        msandford 10y ago
        > Why buy a place in the loop if I still have to get in my car for most things I need or places to be? Because traffic is a total nightmare, because they keep building bigger freeways and making it possible for people to live further and further out. They're exacerbating the problem, not helping it. That road planning is done 100% without zoning too, I might add. But I agree with your point that doing smarter stuff at the denser core might make it easier to entice people inwards and perhaps start Houston growing up instead of out. What's interesting is that people are actually starting to do that now; suburban houses inside the loop are incredibly expensive so most of the new development goes like: 1. buy a $500k, tiny house for the land 2. tear it down 3. build 4-8 townhomes instead 4. sell each for 200k-300k It's getting denser, though not fast enough to make traffic any better.
- potatolicious 10y ago
  I think sprawl and zoning are orthogonal issues honestly - the problem with terrible suburban neighborhoods are largely caused by the same things as terrible urban neighborhoods: the top-down master-plan philosophy of urban planning. If anything onerous suburban zoning tends to be far more painful than onerous urban zoning. The lack of livability is the result of overly restrictive zoning. Instead of putting supermarkets and movie theaters where people want them, they go where planners have deemed The Proper Place. Most suburbs are characterized but this, and it turns out top-down planners aren't actually very good at foreseeing what residents want, and what will create the greatest quality of life for them. Agree with all the points about sprawl and toxic car-centric lifestyles, but even in its own context, these neighborhoods are still failures. I've personally never lived in Houston, but there's almost no major city in America where you can find actually lax zoning. In almost all places it's all incredibly restrictive - if anything urban areas tend to be a bit more lax (they at least entertain the idea of mixed-use development). Overplanning is the disease, and both urban and suburban places can manifest it.
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    If people wanted to live right next to a movie theater they probably wouldn't move to the suburbs.
emodendroket 10y ago
We have BRT in the silver line in Boston and it kind of stinks.
- msandford 10y ago
  Stinks like worse than train, or worse than regular buses, or worse than nothing?
  - emodendroket 10y ago
    Maybe worse than regular buses since there is a step where they have to switch between gas and electric power and the tunnel isn't enough of the journey that you don't get stuck in traffic. Definitely worse than trains.

ska 10y ago

The lack of zoning is a massive problem. That combined with the cheap surrounding land is why there are essentially no livable neighborhoods in Houston in the sense that Jacobs was talking about. Houston is a great example of what you get with unbridled suburban sprawl. Much of the city isn't dense enough to justify real mass transit, which is part of the problem you are seeing. It's a great example of how to keep land prices low and automobile miles high, but not much else from a city planning point of view.

msandford 10y ago
The development is happening outside of the city limits. Which means that no amount of zoning in the already annexed land could or would stop developers from doing things in the unannexed land. In order for your assertion that zoning is the problem to hold water, the city of Houston would have to annex faster than the developers popped out new subdivisions, which definitely isn't happening. I agree that there's a distinct lack of planning in Houston which is a problem. But those aren't necessarily the same thing. Further there are good local neighborhoods popping up all over, especially wherever the light rail is going. All without any zoning whatsoever.
- ska 10y ago
  I haven't lived there for a while , so perhaps good neighbourhoods are popping up, I hope so. They certainly weren't therr 8 or so years ago. I think you are missing the degree to which zoning is needed as a tool for effective planning.
  - msandford 10y ago
    > I think you are missing the degree to which zoning is needed as a tool for effective planning. Okay, so enlighten me! I totally understand how zoning and planning theoretically go hand-in-hand so that you build stuff near transit, and have transit near stuff, and the like. But Houston's problem is that all the first-round development happens outside city limits. Meaning that the overarching plan (if there was one) would still not be able to influence in any way what's happening in places where the city has no jurisdiction. So how would zoning inside the city limits do anything to influence people building outside city limits?
    - ska 10y ago
      Building outside the city limits only works be use of the infrastructure projects to support it, so you are right in that this isn't simply a zoning issue (unless they did something like Toronto's green belt. Which is effectively zoning writ large). But that isn't by any means the only problem. People buy on the outer rim because there is very little advantage to buying anywhere else. This, in part because there aren't cohesive areas, and that has more to do with zoning. In most cities the size of Houston you'll have a denser core with some strong arguments for living there, and these are strengthened by city planning, which zoning is part of. Houston has very, very little of that. Why buy a place in the loop if I still have to get in my car for most things I need or places to be? Part of the problem is lack of planning, and part of the reason is that lack of zoning allows redevelopment without much (any?) thought about impact. I'm not suggesting zoning is at all the only issue, but it is part of why Houston is such a mess as a city in many ways. While I agree with another respondent that zoning can be part of the problem too, I disagree that it is inherent. It's a tool for planning, and can be used well or poorly.
      - msandford 10y ago
        > Why buy a place in the loop if I still have to get in my car for most things I need or places to be? Because traffic is a total nightmare, because they keep building bigger freeways and making it possible for people to live further and further out. They're exacerbating the problem, not helping it. That road planning is done 100% without zoning too, I might add. But I agree with your point that doing smarter stuff at the denser core might make it easier to entice people inwards and perhaps start Houston growing up instead of out. What's interesting is that people are actually starting to do that now; suburban houses inside the loop are incredibly expensive so most of the new development goes like: 1. buy a $500k, tiny house for the land 2. tear it down 3. build 4-8 townhomes instead 4. sell each for 200k-300k It's getting denser, though not fast enough to make traffic any better.
potatolicious 10y ago
I think sprawl and zoning are orthogonal issues honestly - the problem with terrible suburban neighborhoods are largely caused by the same things as terrible urban neighborhoods: the top-down master-plan philosophy of urban planning. If anything onerous suburban zoning tends to be far more painful than onerous urban zoning. The lack of livability is the result of overly restrictive zoning. Instead of putting supermarkets and movie theaters where people want them, they go where planners have deemed The Proper Place. Most suburbs are characterized but this, and it turns out top-down planners aren't actually very good at foreseeing what residents want, and what will create the greatest quality of life for them. Agree with all the points about sprawl and toxic car-centric lifestyles, but even in its own context, these neighborhoods are still failures. I've personally never lived in Houston, but there's almost no major city in America where you can find actually lax zoning. In almost all places it's all incredibly restrictive - if anything urban areas tend to be a bit more lax (they at least entertain the idea of mixed-use development). Overplanning is the disease, and both urban and suburban places can manifest it.
- emodendroket 10y ago
  If people wanted to live right next to a movie theater they probably wouldn't move to the suburbs.

emodendroket 10y ago

We have BRT in the silver line in Boston and it kind of stinks.

msandford 10y ago
Stinks like worse than train, or worse than regular buses, or worse than nothing?
- emodendroket 10y ago
  Maybe worse than regular buses since there is a step where they have to switch between gas and electric power and the tunnel isn't enough of the journey that you don't get stuck in traffic. Definitely worse than trains.