3 ms·

People are not as dumb as you think.

socialist_coder 10y ago
Oh yeah? It worked for the taxi industry in Austin. They tricked people into banning Uber and Lyft, so the taxi industry can continue to operate their monopoly. Look at the actual text of what is on the ballot here: >> This amendment establishes a right under Florida's constitution for consumers to own or lease solar equipment installed on their property to generate electricity for their own use. State and local governments shall retain their abilities to protect consumer rights and public health, safety and welfare, and to ensure that consumers who do not choose to install solar are not required to subsidize the costs of backup power and electric grid access to those who do. It's pretty tricky. Tell me you honestly don't think that a huge amount of people are going to vote yes on that thing.
- Nadya 10y ago
  >Oh yeah? It worked for the taxi industry in Austin. They tricked people into banning Uber and Lyft, so the taxi industry can continue to operate their monopoly. I know what you're talking about with that one! Going to quote myself from earlier on it... >"The way the phrasing was to accept/decline the ordinance to outlaw Uber was so confusingly worded I read it several times and still wasn't sure if I was supposed to vote "yes" or "no" on the ordinance... was it saying "yes" to the new ordinance to overrule/replace the old ordinance or was it voting "yes" to keep the old ordinance? If I voted "yes" was I voting to outlaw Uber or allow Uber? I have a feeling it was intentionally made as confusing as possible." It isn't that people are stupid - it's that these things are worded in such a way to make it as confusing as possible for people to understand. Or to purposefully mislead, such as the bit you quote.
  - socialist_coder 10y ago
    > It isn't that people are stupid - it's that these things are worded in such a way to make it as confusing as possible for people to understand. Or to purposefully mislead, such as the bit you quote. I don't disagree with that. Calling someone stupid who is mislead by this type of thing isn't really fair. It's very very tricky and you really need to do research ahead of time in order to make the correct vote. If you don't know who is bankrolling it, or how other groups feel about it, it would be quite difficult to vote "correctly" just based on what you're reading in the voter booth.
- mikestew 10y ago
  Wow. The first part sounds good until, wait a minute, I need an amendment to the state constitution to put solar panels on my house? I might have not given that first sentence a lot of thought at first, but by the second sentence my alarms would be going off. It's vague, weasely, and open-ended. But the first sentence is convincing enough that I might never get to the second sentence. In the end, I don't know that it will trick voters, but it just seems so poorly written as to border on unprofessional. But I am not a lawyer.
- spc476 10y ago
  Disclosure: I live in Florida. The first sentence I interpret as: The power company (mostly Florida Power and Light, but there are some smaller utility companies that largely resell FPL, like Lake Worth Utilities [1]) cannot restrict or prevent property owners from installing solar power. The second sentence I interpret as: the government can restrict or prevent property owners from installing solar power (in the same way it restricts homeowners with building permits and building codes), but subsidies for solar power will be ended. Not having followed the story [2] I'm inclined to vote "yes" on this (why should I pay for my neighbor's solar installation?) and don't see what's so bad about it. At some point, if solar is going to compete with traditional power sources, it will have to do so on its own terms without subsidies [3]. What do you see that's so insidious in the amendment? [1] I had them when I lived in Lake Worth. Power cost twice as much, and it took forever to restore power after a hurricane. I refer to it as Lake Worthless Power. [2] I've stopped listening to the news. It's horrible fear mongering on all sides (a pox on the 24-hour news cycle!). If something important happens, it will filter into my view. My stress levels have dropped dramatically. [3] Much like electric cars. One subsidy they get is avoiding the gas tax, which goes towards maintenance of roads (on the theory that those who use more gas use more of the roads, and it's generally taxed at the geographical location of use). At some point, that has to change.
  - OrwellianChild 10y ago
    I strongly recommend you read the article linked here, as it explains the false equivalency of the bill. Net-metered solar reduces peak usage, reducing costs for utilities. The article has no less than 9 citations proving the point - your bill should go down as people transition to on-site solar. This bill is about entrenched utilities not wanting to compete - not about solar subsidies. Also, I believe this reasonable confusion answers @dragthor's question... :-)
    - spc476 10y ago
      The article was a mess to read, and very hard to find the actual reason for rejecting the amendment. The two best reasons I've seen for rejecting this amendment are: 1) it already duplicates existing law and protections, so no real reason to have this; 2) net-metering will go away. I can see the reasoning for 1 and it's debatable if it's good enough to vote "no." I'll vote "present" on this one. For 2, I think it really comes down to what is considered a "subsidy." In my mind, it's the installation subsidy---that is, it costs (I'm making this up as I haven't actually researched this) $20,000 to do a solar installation for a home, yet "the government" will rebate $15,000 of it (through tax breaks or an outright check---does it matter how it's done?). I don't see "net metering" as a subsidy though---you are generating a product (in the form of excess electricity) and are selling it to the power company. But having read the "fabulous" article, I just see "this will end net-metering!" without any proof. On the power company's side, running a grid is hard. They don't just run "all the generators" at 100% all the time because doing so would harm the transmission equipment; excess load is excess heat and over time damages the equipment, so the power companies try very hard to keep the generation matching the load (generally they run a bit high to cover demand spikes but not so high as to do damage to the equipment---it's a fine line). Net metering makes this a bit harder to manage. Traditional sources are more consistent in output and can be controlled better than solar, which is dependent upon too many different conditions over the day [1]. If there's proof that "net-metering" is considered a "subsidy" by the proponents (or the power companies) and then, maybe, I'd vote "no." But the current "net-metering is going away!" fear mongering is not helping here. [1] Especially here in Florida. It can be party cloudy and still raining. It can be clear, then two hours later overcast with a torrential downpour, then partly cloudy an hour later. You're a power company that needs to maintain power generation to within 5% of load, now do that with unpredictable power supply.

Oh yeah? It worked for the taxi industry in Austin. They tricked people into banning Uber and Lyft, so the taxi industry can continue to operate their monopoly. Look at the actual text of what is on the ballot here: >> This amendment establishes a right under Florida's constitution for consumers to own or lease solar equipment installed on their property to generate electricity for their own use. State and local governments shall retain their abilities to protect consumer rights and public health, safety and welfare, and to ensure that consumers who do not choose to install solar are not required to subsidize the costs of backup power and electric grid access to those who do. It's pretty tricky. Tell me you honestly don't think that a huge amount of people are going to vote yes on that thing.

Nadya 10y ago
>Oh yeah? It worked for the taxi industry in Austin. They tricked people into banning Uber and Lyft, so the taxi industry can continue to operate their monopoly. I know what you're talking about with that one! Going to quote myself from earlier on it... >"The way the phrasing was to accept/decline the ordinance to outlaw Uber was so confusingly worded I read it several times and still wasn't sure if I was supposed to vote "yes" or "no" on the ordinance... was it saying "yes" to the new ordinance to overrule/replace the old ordinance or was it voting "yes" to keep the old ordinance? If I voted "yes" was I voting to outlaw Uber or allow Uber? I have a feeling it was intentionally made as confusing as possible." It isn't that people are stupid - it's that these things are worded in such a way to make it as confusing as possible for people to understand. Or to purposefully mislead, such as the bit you quote.
- socialist_coder 10y ago
  > It isn't that people are stupid - it's that these things are worded in such a way to make it as confusing as possible for people to understand. Or to purposefully mislead, such as the bit you quote. I don't disagree with that. Calling someone stupid who is mislead by this type of thing isn't really fair. It's very very tricky and you really need to do research ahead of time in order to make the correct vote. If you don't know who is bankrolling it, or how other groups feel about it, it would be quite difficult to vote "correctly" just based on what you're reading in the voter booth.
mikestew 10y ago
Wow. The first part sounds good until, wait a minute, I need an amendment to the state constitution to put solar panels on my house? I might have not given that first sentence a lot of thought at first, but by the second sentence my alarms would be going off. It's vague, weasely, and open-ended. But the first sentence is convincing enough that I might never get to the second sentence. In the end, I don't know that it will trick voters, but it just seems so poorly written as to border on unprofessional. But I am not a lawyer.
spc476 10y ago
Disclosure: I live in Florida. The first sentence I interpret as: The power company (mostly Florida Power and Light, but there are some smaller utility companies that largely resell FPL, like Lake Worth Utilities [1]) cannot restrict or prevent property owners from installing solar power. The second sentence I interpret as: the government can restrict or prevent property owners from installing solar power (in the same way it restricts homeowners with building permits and building codes), but subsidies for solar power will be ended. Not having followed the story [2] I'm inclined to vote "yes" on this (why should I pay for my neighbor's solar installation?) and don't see what's so bad about it. At some point, if solar is going to compete with traditional power sources, it will have to do so on its own terms without subsidies [3]. What do you see that's so insidious in the amendment? [1] I had them when I lived in Lake Worth. Power cost twice as much, and it took forever to restore power after a hurricane. I refer to it as Lake Worthless Power. [2] I've stopped listening to the news. It's horrible fear mongering on all sides (a pox on the 24-hour news cycle!). If something important happens, it will filter into my view. My stress levels have dropped dramatically. [3] Much like electric cars. One subsidy they get is avoiding the gas tax, which goes towards maintenance of roads (on the theory that those who use more gas use more of the roads, and it's generally taxed at the geographical location of use). At some point, that has to change.
- OrwellianChild 10y ago
  I strongly recommend you read the article linked here, as it explains the false equivalency of the bill. Net-metered solar reduces peak usage, reducing costs for utilities. The article has no less than 9 citations proving the point - your bill should go down as people transition to on-site solar. This bill is about entrenched utilities not wanting to compete - not about solar subsidies. Also, I believe this reasonable confusion answers @dragthor's question... :-)
  - spc476 10y ago
    The article was a mess to read, and very hard to find the actual reason for rejecting the amendment. The two best reasons I've seen for rejecting this amendment are: 1) it already duplicates existing law and protections, so no real reason to have this; 2) net-metering will go away. I can see the reasoning for 1 and it's debatable if it's good enough to vote "no." I'll vote "present" on this one. For 2, I think it really comes down to what is considered a "subsidy." In my mind, it's the installation subsidy---that is, it costs (I'm making this up as I haven't actually researched this) $20,000 to do a solar installation for a home, yet "the government" will rebate $15,000 of it (through tax breaks or an outright check---does it matter how it's done?). I don't see "net metering" as a subsidy though---you are generating a product (in the form of excess electricity) and are selling it to the power company. But having read the "fabulous" article, I just see "this will end net-metering!" without any proof. On the power company's side, running a grid is hard. They don't just run "all the generators" at 100% all the time because doing so would harm the transmission equipment; excess load is excess heat and over time damages the equipment, so the power companies try very hard to keep the generation matching the load (generally they run a bit high to cover demand spikes but not so high as to do damage to the equipment---it's a fine line). Net metering makes this a bit harder to manage. Traditional sources are more consistent in output and can be controlled better than solar, which is dependent upon too many different conditions over the day [1]. If there's proof that "net-metering" is considered a "subsidy" by the proponents (or the power companies) and then, maybe, I'd vote "no." But the current "net-metering is going away!" fear mongering is not helping here. [1] Especially here in Florida. It can be party cloudy and still raining. It can be clear, then two hours later overcast with a torrential downpour, then partly cloudy an hour later. You're a power company that needs to maintain power generation to within 5% of load, now do that with unpredictable power supply.