6 ms·

they took away the Esc key and all the Fn keys. Apple's HIG is dead to me now.

by thefastlane 10y ago

budde 10y ago
Doesn't holding down the "fn" key bring them all back though?
- khedoros1 10y ago
  It displays them on the touch bar, but it doesn't replicate the functionality of the physical keys. That's a mix of positive and negative attributes; the balance of whether it's a net gain or net loss is completely subjective.
acdha 10y ago
Just looking at http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/ http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/ shows that's not true: http://images.apple.com/v/macbook-pro/j/images/overview/touchbar_access_function_large.jpg http://images.apple.com/v/macbook-pro/j/images/overview/touc... Maybe wait to actually use one before trying to rally the mob with pitchforks and torches?
- thefastlane 10y ago
  i appreciate you pointing this out concerning the Fn keys. at the end of the day, though, i want real keys. i'm not a starfleet officer and i don't want to type on a flat screen.
  - awesomerobot 10y ago
    I'd type on a flat screen if it made me a starfleet officer though
- khedoros1 10y ago
  If the emphasis is on "keys", then those images don't refute the comment you replied to.
  - acdha 10y ago
    Depends on whether you define “key” to include only single-purpose hardware keys or include several decades of prior art referring to “soft keys”, “virtual keyboards”, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_keyboard I personally don't feel the need to be that pedantic — since I've used both good touchscreen keyboards and wretched hardware, I'd prefer to focus on the quality of any specific implementation rather than philosophical debates about the nature of a “key”.
    - khedoros1 10y ago
      Well, you understood the distinction that I was making, and I think it's a useful one to make. I'm aware of soft keys and virtual keyboards (it's been hard not to be, for a big chunk of my life). Physical/soft/virtual keys all have their own use-cases and some potential for overlap when you might choose one or the other. That's why I was making the distinction; I feel like you chose the interpretation of "key" that could be trivially dismissed, rather than what they probably meant in the context of their complaint. Luckily, we've got two implementations that we can compare, and that it would be logical to assume we're talking about: The Touch Bar and the row of keys that it replaced. The TB adds some pros: continuous (slider-like) or discrete (key-like) behavior, display of dynamic information, and general flexibility. It has some cons too, though: Lack of tactile feedback makes it impossible to use without looking, it potentially requires extra key-presses (and glances to the keyboard) to use the old functionality, key placement isn't predictable, etc. My point being: It's reasonable to assume that the comment you originally replied to was complaining about the difference between virtual and physical keys, but your reply basically said "that doesn't matter, because you can simulate the missing keys".

they took away the Esc key and all the Fn keys. Apple's HIG is dead to me now.

budde 10y ago

Doesn't holding down the "fn" key bring them all back though?

khedoros1 10y ago
It displays them on the touch bar, but it doesn't replicate the functionality of the physical keys. That's a mix of positive and negative attributes; the balance of whether it's a net gain or net loss is completely subjective.

acdha 10y ago

Just looking at http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/ http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/ shows that's not true: http://images.apple.com/v/macbook-pro/j/images/overview/touchbar_access_function_large.jpg http://images.apple.com/v/macbook-pro/j/images/overview/touc... Maybe wait to actually use one before trying to rally the mob with pitchforks and torches?

thefastlane 10y ago
i appreciate you pointing this out concerning the Fn keys. at the end of the day, though, i want real keys. i'm not a starfleet officer and i don't want to type on a flat screen.
- awesomerobot 10y ago
  I'd type on a flat screen if it made me a starfleet officer though
khedoros1 10y ago
If the emphasis is on "keys", then those images don't refute the comment you replied to.
- acdha 10y ago
  Depends on whether you define “key” to include only single-purpose hardware keys or include several decades of prior art referring to “soft keys”, “virtual keyboards”, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_key https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_keyboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_keyboard I personally don't feel the need to be that pedantic — since I've used both good touchscreen keyboards and wretched hardware, I'd prefer to focus on the quality of any specific implementation rather than philosophical debates about the nature of a “key”.
  - khedoros1 10y ago
    Well, you understood the distinction that I was making, and I think it's a useful one to make. I'm aware of soft keys and virtual keyboards (it's been hard not to be, for a big chunk of my life). Physical/soft/virtual keys all have their own use-cases and some potential for overlap when you might choose one or the other. That's why I was making the distinction; I feel like you chose the interpretation of "key" that could be trivially dismissed, rather than what they probably meant in the context of their complaint. Luckily, we've got two implementations that we can compare, and that it would be logical to assume we're talking about: The Touch Bar and the row of keys that it replaced. The TB adds some pros: continuous (slider-like) or discrete (key-like) behavior, display of dynamic information, and general flexibility. It has some cons too, though: Lack of tactile feedback makes it impossible to use without looking, it potentially requires extra key-presses (and glances to the keyboard) to use the old functionality, key placement isn't predictable, etc. My point being: It's reasonable to assume that the comment you originally replied to was complaining about the difference between virtual and physical keys, but your reply basically said "that doesn't matter, because you can simulate the missing keys".