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Can you provide any reputable data that proves this to be accurate? Please share the link or provide evidence, otherwise you are exasperating the problem that t

Can you provide any reputable data that proves this to be accurate? Please share the link or provide evidence, otherwise you are exasperating the problem that the article outlines.

nickff 10y ago
I have stopped responding when people simply ask for citations. Saying "citation needed" is a low-value comment, and I have better things to do than look up studies which I've read, and you will probably dismiss out-of-hand. If you have good evidence which contradicts my comment, please post it, so that myself and others can learn.
- sanderjd 10y ago
  I definitely understand the inclination to avoid doing this sort of citation-finding work, but I think the approach you've chosen is a worse one than you think. You say comments that only ask for citation are low value, and that may be true, but I think comments that are of the form, "the studies I have seen say (insert very debatable thing)", without providing any support, are even lower value. By this logic, you can say anything you want, while implying that it has been studied by experts, when in fact you just made it up. I wish this were a straw-man hypothetical, but this sort of discourse is actually so common now that whenever I see someone vaguely cite "something I have seen in studies", I assume it actually means "something I heard someone say they saw in studies", and that it is totally fabricated. It's also pretty rich to have the position that you won't put in the work to back up your statements, but that those who call you out on that should be willing to do the work to disprove you. Just replying to you with "I have seen studies that say the opposite" is equally as (un)convincing as what you've said.
  - nickff 10y ago
    I wrote a comment which described the state of my knowledge, and would be fine if another commenter said they disagreed for any reason (anecdotal or evidenciary). If the respondent had said "I looked, but could not find studies which correspond with what you are saying", I would have made more effort. The problem behavior which I have seen cropping up on Hacker News is people asking for citations as a quick and easy way of invalidating other people's views, while justifying downvotes (which have become far too common). I have also observed that many will ask for studies, then either ignore them for viewpoint or ad hominiem reasons, or attempt to invalidate the study by nit-picking. If the original commenter lied or pulled numbers out of thin air, it is fair to call them out (in my view), but laziness on the part of the respondent is no justification for snark.
    - narrowrail 10y ago
      Apparently, some of us consider what you said to be an "extraordinary claim" requiring evidence. You are essentially saying: "Prove 'the state of my knowledge' is wrong." The burden of proof lies with the original claim maker, not the respondent. This is not a bar room conversation from the 90s, we are literally on the internet; citing one's sources isn't too much to ask.
      - nickff 10y ago
        What is your standard for evidence? Without knowing that, I cannot hope to give 'conclusive evidence'. Do you have a white-list, black-list, or other standard for sources? What type of evidence would satisfy your standards, and what are the minimum sample size, maximum p-value, and robustness with respect to alternate causes? Do you require some amount of replication, peer review, or publication?
        scott_s 10y ago
        No one asked for "conclusive evidence" - although, of course, it would be nice. But it's reasonable to ask for the sources that informed your view.

Can you provide any reputable data that proves this to be accurate? Please share the link or provide evidence, otherwise you are exasperating the problem that the article outlines.

nickff 10y ago

I have stopped responding when people simply ask for citations. Saying "citation needed" is a low-value comment, and I have better things to do than look up studies which I've read, and you will probably dismiss out-of-hand. If you have good evidence which contradicts my comment, please post it, so that myself and others can learn.

sanderjd 10y ago
I definitely understand the inclination to avoid doing this sort of citation-finding work, but I think the approach you've chosen is a worse one than you think. You say comments that only ask for citation are low value, and that may be true, but I think comments that are of the form, "the studies I have seen say (insert very debatable thing)", without providing any support, are even lower value. By this logic, you can say anything you want, while implying that it has been studied by experts, when in fact you just made it up. I wish this were a straw-man hypothetical, but this sort of discourse is actually so common now that whenever I see someone vaguely cite "something I have seen in studies", I assume it actually means "something I heard someone say they saw in studies", and that it is totally fabricated. It's also pretty rich to have the position that you won't put in the work to back up your statements, but that those who call you out on that should be willing to do the work to disprove you. Just replying to you with "I have seen studies that say the opposite" is equally as (un)convincing as what you've said.
- nickff 10y ago
  I wrote a comment which described the state of my knowledge, and would be fine if another commenter said they disagreed for any reason (anecdotal or evidenciary). If the respondent had said "I looked, but could not find studies which correspond with what you are saying", I would have made more effort. The problem behavior which I have seen cropping up on Hacker News is people asking for citations as a quick and easy way of invalidating other people's views, while justifying downvotes (which have become far too common). I have also observed that many will ask for studies, then either ignore them for viewpoint or ad hominiem reasons, or attempt to invalidate the study by nit-picking. If the original commenter lied or pulled numbers out of thin air, it is fair to call them out (in my view), but laziness on the part of the respondent is no justification for snark.
  - narrowrail 10y ago
    Apparently, some of us consider what you said to be an "extraordinary claim" requiring evidence. You are essentially saying: "Prove 'the state of my knowledge' is wrong." The burden of proof lies with the original claim maker, not the respondent. This is not a bar room conversation from the 90s, we are literally on the internet; citing one's sources isn't too much to ask.
    - nickff 10y ago
      What is your standard for evidence? Without knowing that, I cannot hope to give 'conclusive evidence'. Do you have a white-list, black-list, or other standard for sources? What type of evidence would satisfy your standards, and what are the minimum sample size, maximum p-value, and robustness with respect to alternate causes? Do you require some amount of replication, peer review, or publication?
      - scott_s 10y ago
        No one asked for "conclusive evidence" - although, of course, it would be nice. But it's reasonable to ask for the sources that informed your view.